In his State of the State address 10 days ago, Gov. Tim Pawlenty drew a vivid picture of fear and worry at Minnesota's "kitchen table," warning that state government faces "bare realities … the worst we've seen in a long time."

Lack of money isn't MnDOT's problem, however. Quite the opposite. The transportation department is busy figuring out how best to spend the gusher of cash soon expected from the Obama administration's recovery plan. A main point of the plan is to stimulate jobs, especially those to rebuild the nation's sagging infrastructure. States have lined up more than 5,000 "shovel ready" projects. Expected are $30 billion for roads and bridges, and  $10.1 billion for transit and inter-city rail.

As details spilled out, there was considerable disappointment that high-profile transit projects to reduce foreign oil dependence and slow global warming are not included. The central aim, rather, is to stimulate job growth on routine repair work that can be launched quickly.

Minnesota's share hasn't yet been determined, nor have spending guidelines been announced. Until more details arrive, Tom Sorel, MnDOT's new commissioner, isn't tipping his hand on which freeways or transit lines might get a boost. Confirmed last week by the Minnesota Senate, Sorel succeeds Lt. Gov. Carol Molnau – who, in the wake of the Minneapolis bridge collapse, was forced out of the top MnDOT post last April. Sorel is a professional engineer with a long career at the federal Transportation Department. We sat down for a short discussion last week.

MinnPost: Your problem is the opposite of other state agencies – you've got to gear up to spend more money.

Tom Sorel: We're doing a lot to get ready. I just returned from a Transportation Research Board meeting in Washington, and I think we're ahead of most states. Our approach is to take aim at stimulating the economy. When we get the guidelines on what we should be doing, we'll have projects that won't just stimulate construction jobs but that will stimulate other jobs from the economic-development standpoint.

MP: So you want to get the biggest bang for your buck on job growth, both in construction and on locating the construction in places that could generate further economic growth.

TS: Exactly. This is about a project's effect from a legacy standpoint.

MP: The classic connection between transportation and land use.

TS: Exactly. Other states aren't thinking about this in quite the same way. Some are just looking at repaving things. We're trying to take a broader look.

MP: So what projects are on your list?

TS: People ask us about that but we don't have a definitive list because we don't yet know exactly what Congress will say. We do have potential projects in mind, but we'd rather see the exact parameters before announcing a list. It's such a floating target.

MP: Well, the governor said initially that he didn't want federal stimulus for infrastructure. What was your reaction?

TS: Well, I know that's his philosophy, but it's my job as commissioner to implement whatever is handed to us. And I think he would agree that if this money comes to Minnesota, we need to do what's best for the citizens to make sure we're getting the right projects out there.

MP: How do you view the steep slide in gasoline prices in recent months and its effect on demand for driving? You have to build roads for the long run. Do you trust low gas prices? Do you trust the decline in driving that we've seen? How do you factor in the possible impact of the electric cars that the automakers promise to bring to the market over the next few years?

TS: The situation is so volatile that it makes it hard for agencies like ours to predict our program for the future. We have to shift the discussion from the gas tax to other sources of revenue. It's not going to happen overnight. We'll have to look at charges based on vehicle miles driven and other things. The discussion is shifting toward that. Mr. Oberstar (House Transportation Committee Chairman James Oberstar, D-Minn.) has shifted his thinking on that.

MP: He has even begun to talk about charges based also on vehicle weight.

TS: Yes. We have a pilot program looking at the mileage-based fee concept. I think it'll be a transition over the next five or six years. There's no doubt in my mind that a different structure of user fees will have to be in place; more of what we're doing here with our MNpass system and our HOT lanes. (Charging single drivers a toll for driving in car pool/bus lanes.) Just look around the world and you see different kids of models for congestion pricing. We've got to pull that together here and incorporate it into our system.

MP: Actually, the Twin Cities is well-situated for those kinds of experiments. We are a mature urban area with heavy traffic, but our traffic isn't so terrible that we can't afford to try new things, even if some of them fail.

TS: I think the Twin Cities can serve as a kind of living laboratory on this, and that our entire state can be on the cutting edge of this to see what works and what doesn't work. In that way I think we can shape national transportation policy. The Urban Partnership Agreement could be a model.

(The UPA is a joint venture with the federal government that will install toll lanes and bus rapid transit service along the Interstate Hwy. 35W and Cedar Avenue corridors running south from downtown Minneapolis to the Dakota County suburbs.)

MP: It's hard to imagine a time when the car will be less important, but you hear much more these days about the need for more transit, walking and biking as a lifestyle choice. Congressman Oberstar has factored that into his thinking about federal funding. What's your reaction?

TS: My vision of transportation is inter-modal. I'm open about looking at rail options fitting into our system. I always like to remind people that we're a department of transportation, not a highway department. Aviation and ports play a key role, too. They are extremely important to our economy. We must throw all of these modes together and include land use in our planning. It's a transformational time.