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‘There’s nobody in America that’s prepared.’ Why?

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan
Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan on National Public Radio last week: “There’s nobody in America that’s prepared.”

This week, Maryland’s Republican Gov. Larry Hogan told National Public Radio that “With respect to the personal protective equipment (PPE) and masks and ventilators and all of those things that you’re hearing about: Every single state in America has a shortage. … We’ve been pushing these things at the federal level, but there are simply not enough of them.”

His somber conclusion: “There’s nobody in America that’s prepared,” in referring to states and locales.

To understand why, we first need to dispense with the allegation, turned into an excuse, that China delayed reporting the new virus. A case could be made it delayed a few weeks, but not months, as President Donald Trump repeatedly alleges at press briefings.

The sequence of events is well established. In early December, Wuhan hospitals saw the first few dozen patients experiencing pneumonia-like symptoms that did not respond to treatment. By  Dec. 31, 2019, China had identified this as a new virus and reported this to the World Health Organization. On Jan.3, China completed gene sequencing the virus and made it available to researchers and governments worldwide within days.

In reality it’s Trump’s Pollyannaish messages and hesitation that caused confusion and delays. It is also clear that the lack of preparedness is systemic and longstanding. Our health care system and private-sector manufacturing capacity proved woefully unprepared to respond to a pandemic.

This is evident in the lack of personal protective equipment (PPE) nationwide and the technical and organizational capacity to conduct testing and contact tracing. South Koreans were prepared because they learned from the deadly MERS outbreak in 2015. They stocked up on testing equipment, PPE and refined protocols. Why didn’t the U.S. government and Congress take  similar actions?

Wayne Nealis
Wayne Nealis
Even in Minnesota, where we have some of the best health care organizations, our private and public hospitals lack sufficient inventory of surgical and N-95 masks for their own staff. Hospitals should not be running on lean inventories in an age where epidemics are becoming more frequent. Across the nation, we are now paying the price for insufficient numbers of hospital beds, ICU capacity and medical staff. Health services need the capacity to expand quickly in a crisis. Underutilized rooms are a sign of being prepared, not a sign of inefficiency.

We also lack PPE to safely carry out essential public activities and services — in particular, our front line workers like grocery store employees, who interact with the public daily. A friend in Chiang Mai, Thailand, recently told me that grocery store clerks there are equipped with masks, face shields and gloves. Every shoppers’ temperature is taken before they enter a store. Since everyone needs groceries, such a regime is a means of surveilling the public for those who may be ill. Here, clerks and customers alike have zero to little protection. Sadly, we may look back and see that grocery stores, an essential business, were a key point of transmission.

The result of this systemic failure is that 100,000 Americans may die, many more will suffer long-term damage to their lungs, and millions will be left grieving the loss of loved ones. Americans should accept no excuse for this failure. China, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore succeeded in containing the virus, altogether reporting just under 3,500 deaths, almost all in China. That all we can hope for is to stay under 100,000 is a crime.

It has taken three months to mobilize U.S. resources to stem the virus; it should have taken three days. Had we been prepared for a pandemic, we might have nipped it in the bud. We now live with this shortsightedness. That means each of us must do our best to protect each other by abiding by the social distancing guidelines. When we get through this, and we will, it will be time to raise hell with our elected officials.

The pandemic also shows that Obamacare is inadequate. Millions of laid-off workers lost their insurance. Millions had none beforehand. Still, the GOP and most top Democrats oppose Medicare for All. They are beholden to insurers, drug companies and private health care firms that exploit Americans’ health problems for profit.

If there was ever a clearer case for Medicare for All we now see it unfolding daily. To put it bluntly, the private for-profit insurance and provider model is killing Americans. Delivering health care, not making profits, should guide us going forward. We are all in it together is the lesson of this pandemic. National health insurance would have allowed us to seamlessly respond to this crisis.

Americans must demand that Congress act. We owe it to all those who have died and will die.

Wayne Nealis is a writer and longtime peace and labor activist living in Minneapolis.

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Comments (46)

  1. Submitted by richard owens on 04/02/2020 - 04:01 pm.

    “To understand why, we first need to dispense with the allegation, turned into an excuse, that China delayed reporting the new virus. A case could be made it delayed a few weeks, but not months, as President Donald Trump repeatedly alleges at press briefings.”

    So many lies have centered around the blame of China.

    We even had an American embedded in the Chinese pandemic group, but that person was removed in July. Huh?

    There is a whole different reality we are expected to swallow, that continues to demonize China an enemy of the US, under tariffs for being good at producing things American want to buy. China has benefited from 14 5 year plans designed to improve Chinese economy and efficiency.

    Today I read Noam Chomsky’s take on the Trump preparation excuses:

    “By early January, there was little doubt of what was happening. On December 31, China informed the World Health Organization (WHO) of the spread of pneumonia-like symptoms with unknown etiology. On January 7, China informed the WHO that scientists had identified the source as a coronavirus and had sequenced the genome, which they made available to the scientific world. Through January and February, U.S. intelligence was trying hard to reach Trump’s ear, but failed. Officials informed the press that “they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it. The system was blinking red.”

    Another gem of truth can be found in this article, THREE REASONS THE U.S. IS NOT READY FOR THE NEXT PANDEMIC
    By Andrew Natsios | AUGUST 24, 2018

    https://www.developmentreform.org/cdr-voices/andrew-natsios-three-reasons-the-us-is-not-ready-for-the-next-pandemic

    Bernie had the right plans. He frightened off the great believers in American exceptionalism despite the voluminous evidence that says he was right about so much that we now have few answers for.

    Tax cuts don’t make functional governance. They sabotage countries and kill citizens for no good reason.

  2. Submitted by lisa miller on 04/02/2020 - 04:45 pm.

    That was a bit of a leap from not being prepared to Medicare for all. No doubt our current system is a mess. And this administration cut the pandemic office 2 years ago; add to it in January, some politicians did not listen to experts on the looming crisis. However look at Germany, there system has a mix of government health care and a private option and they are faring better than most countries. Sanders numbers were off in the Medicare for all debate–many on private care would not get more than what they pay in and for that reason they ran.

    • Submitted by Bill Lindeke on 04/03/2020 - 11:22 am.

      It’s not a leap, in my opinion. We need a holistic comprehensive health care system, and Medicare For All is the only single-payer proposal on the table. Our existing slapdash market-based approach simply cannot meet our public health needs, and this crisis makes that very clear to me.

      • Submitted by Pat Terry on 04/03/2020 - 05:31 pm.

        Nonsense. Again, going back to and expanding on Lisa’s point, there are places with private or mixed healthcare systems that have done well, and systems closer to the MFA model that have failed miserably.

        Has Medicare worked for people who are eligible? And maybe Medicare isn’t even the right model for MFA since many people on Medicare also have private insurance. There have been numerous proposals – mostly built upon a public option – that, unlike MFA, might actually pass and wouldn’t be deemed instantly unconstitutional. Its too bad that the nonsense being spouted by an incompetent clown like Sanders gets all the attention.

        • Submitted by Paul Udstrand on 04/05/2020 - 11:16 am.

          It’s interesting to see people who think that we’re just NOW beginning to have this conversation and look consider MFA, and pretending that their ignorance and disinterest much be universal.

          We are way way way past the point of studying other health care systems, been there and done that in the 90’s for the most part. There’s little point in studying other systems at this point because no one is talking about borrowing anyone else’s system, that’s NOT what MFA is.

          MFA makes the most sense for the US because the infrastructure (medicare/medicaid) is already in place and functioning. Funding it, and expanding it to a universal comprehensive system that covers everything and everyone is simply the most efficient option. Sander’s bill is only 100 pages. Any attempt to preserve the existing markets with private plans simply perpetuates inefficiencies, prolongs suffering, and promotes increasing costs.

          We can’t let limited imaginations of “moderates” who can’t imagine MFA dictate reality.

  3. Submitted by Gerry Anderson on 04/02/2020 - 05:10 pm.

    With Medicare for all, there would be enough staff for the hospitals in NYC and other places where people are not doing what they should? Actually, there will be less people due to hospitals not being able to afford them due to reduced government reimbursement and why go into medicine if you can not make a salary that is compatible with the debt and time?
    I know business people and professionals in Canada. They all have private insurance. They do use the public option for minor things but the wait is too great and too much hassle using the public option.

    • Submitted by Alan Straka on 04/03/2020 - 02:35 pm.

      It is all in the implementation. Other nations with national health care systems have sufficient health care workers. They have sufficient supplies and drugs are actually affordable. Yes, people may wait for non-critical care but those in dire need get timely treatment. Nobody in those countries goes bankrupt from medical bills. And, most importantly, their health care systems have proven to keep their citizens healthier than does our system. Maybe wealthy Canadians do purchase private supplemental insurance but the point is that no one in Canada goes without health insurance as is the case in the US.

  4. Submitted by Scott Walters on 04/02/2020 - 05:50 pm.

    Health systems absolutely lack surge capacity. That’s a feature, not a bug. My company plans hospitals for a living. We’re as good as anybody at it, and better than most. What does that mean? We’re the people who arrive just before the architects, and build and run the demographic based demand models that predict how many beds of each type, how many ED treatment stations, how many ORs, how many CT scanners, MRIs, X-ray machines, etc. will be needed to meet clinical demand in 5 and 10 years. We then work with the hospital’s preferred architect to create efficient plans to provide the necessary capacity.

    We NEVER plan for surge capacity for an epidemic or a pandemic. We plan adequate capacity for a growing (or stable, or declining) population, for likely changes in demand for different services as care delivery models change (more outpatient capacity, usually stable inpatient demand); changes driven by an aging population (this is a huge component); changes that a new program or service may create; etc.

    We plan for normal seasonal variations, variations driven by day of the week (Sunday is the slowest day, volumes usually peak mid-week), and variations over the course of a day (census usually peaks around noon to very early afternoon, and bottoms out in the early to mid-evening). Each department has its rhythm, these usually predictable rhythms drive the capacity targets.

    Two factors are critical to our work: 1. Space costs money. Money to build – for hospitals this is an astronomical amount of money. The decision to add space for one more chair to a waiting room is about a $30,000 capital expenditure. One additional patient bedroom, with its typical support space would cost between $650,000 and $800,000. One new nursing unit is a $20 to $25 million investment. No rational health system would ever create a surge unit at those prices. And we would advise them not to do it. Because…

    That’s just the cost to build it. The cost to maintain but not operate that unit would be about $325,000 to $350,000 per year, every year. The unit will need to be maintained at a fairly constant temperature, some ventilation will need to occur, and basic maintenance on all of the building systems will need to continue. Basic maintenance runs about $14/square foot, per year, forever.

    Presumably these costs will just be added to the cost of private health insurance premiums. That’s the only variable funding source that hospitals have. Medicare and Medicaid funding is already a break even/loss leader for almost all systems, and it’s a fixed payment. So the margins come from those with commercial insurance.

    Remember, insurance companies are competing on price for employers and individuals on the open market, which means they are ever pushing health care providers to compete on price for the insurance company’s business. How do we help hospitals compete on price? We eliminate every square foot we possibly can. We eliminate surge capacity. We eliminate storage space. We eliminate every space we can that doesn’t drive consistent clinical volume or create a competitive market improvement in the patient and family experience. If a hospital is part of a system, we cut the capacity margins even closer. Don’t build an extra bed, transfer the patient to a system hospital. I constantly tell my clients, “Big empty hospitals lose money, small full hospitals make money.” We are always trying to provide the minimum capacity necessary to meet the needs of the community about 99 percent of the time, and create a backup plan for the 1 percent.

    That’s how hospitals are sized, and that’s why we don’t have surge capacity. If you want surge capacity, that’s fine, but somebody needs to agree to pay for it.

    • Submitted by Connie Sullivan on 04/03/2020 - 11:59 am.

      You have just very clearly outlined for us why capitalism cannot adequately address the 21st century! If cost is the main criterion in the way hospitals are planned, we are doomed.

      I would prefer that we go the Elizabeth Warren route–she actually has plans for how to implement a better healthcare system (unlike Bernie who last week was still out spouting his ideological broadsides while Warren was hard at work in the Senate to make sure that workers at the bottom of the economic scale and small businesses were included in the Senate’s $2.2 trillion disaster relief package–her work may be why millions survive this crisis economically).

      • Submitted by Pat Terry on 04/03/2020 - 05:35 pm.

        The great shame of this election campaign was that Warren wasn’t the candidate of the left. Unfortunately, having actual plans seemed to be her downfall. People seemed to prefer the fantasies Sanders was selling than Warren’s number crunching. Sanders bloviating at rallies was more important than Warren doing hard work.

      • Submitted by Tom Anderson on 04/03/2020 - 07:41 pm.

        Cost is significant because someone has to pay for it. Hospitals and clinics don’t buy stuff “just in case”. Most people don’t buy 2 or 3 spare cars and have 2 or 3 extra freezers full of food either. Why? Because we’d have to pay for it.

    • Submitted by Tom Anderson on 04/03/2020 - 07:43 pm.

      Wonderful explanation!

  5. Submitted by William Hunter Duncan on 04/03/2020 - 09:24 am.

    Such is the cost of making profit the highest ideal, while facilitating monopoly growth in industry. It truly is pathological and the leadership of both parties are complicit. Crony capitalism is a killer.

    Now we get a sense of the cost. Meanwhile these entrenched interests that set up this failure, are setting up their unlimited, TBTF bailout, after which they will be even more powerful. Soon we we will see how difficult it is to remove such powers once granted.

  6. Submitted by David Markle on 04/03/2020 - 12:54 pm.

    Who has shown, so far, that a single payer system would have adequately prepared us for a crisis on this scale? Please give examples.

  7. Submitted by Dennis Wagner on 04/03/2020 - 04:21 pm.

    Interesting how quickly the topic went from “There’s nobody in America that’s prepared.’ Why? ” To a discussion on single payer! Why aren’t we prepared, from this perspective its called the deep state, in sports its called having bench strength. The “R’s” and Trump have been so against “bench strength” that would challenge Trump’s and or their psychotic conspiracy theory of the US political system, that as noted in the first comment they got rid of anyone that knew anything or would say anything, i.e we now have a bench of woefully ill-prepared 10th stringers called up from the micro-mini-minor league I only know loyalty to the master, (meets all 1 of the qualifications). So we have the perfect storm of a narcissistic inept president trying to direct traffic and is clueless on how to even blow his whistle! He thinks its all about waving his arms. even the conservative conservatives have had enough of the idiot show.
    https://twitter.com/billkristol/status/1240716869729783808

    .

  8. Submitted by Tom Anderson on 04/03/2020 - 08:05 pm.

    “China, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore succeeded in containing the virus, altogether reporting just under 3,500 deaths, almost all in China.”

    Might want to wait for the final tally on China, and for a better source with much larger totals coming to light as we speak.

  9. Submitted by Paul Udstrand on 04/04/2020 - 10:11 am.

    I would take a small issue with the title, although the article itself is pretty clear. The problem isn’t that nobody is prepared, the problem is that almost all of the preparations have been ignored or effectively sabotaged by massive incompetence on the federal level.

    Almost everyone in public health has anticipated an outbreak like this for at least two decades, and there’s absolutely nothing about THIS outbreak that hasn’t been predicted or anticipated. There are hundreds of public health professionals that would have told you what supplies would be needed, and how to track an outbreak like this and contain or mitigate it’s spread. We’ve known for decades that respiratory failure is the primary cause of death with these kinds infections, and we’ve known that this kind of infection is the most likely to emerge as a pandemic agent. This is why we have stockpiles.

    In fact HHS was so aware of the need to stockpile respirators that they actually tried to get thousands of them designed and manufactured five years ago. The demand for PPE, lab supplies, and additional ICU beds, all predicted and anticipated.

    The problem is that NONE of this planning and foresight can amount to very much if the feds stand down in a crises, which is exactly what happened. At a time when a fully coordinated national response is absolutely critical… we still don’t have one, four months into the crises. We have a president leading a White House that doesn’t realize it’s actually their job to manage a national response. They think that leaving everyone to their own devices will create a competitive market that will kill the virus. At a time when we need proactive leadership, we’re stuck with leaders who literally believe a reactive private sector is a superior crises management model. People are going to die because we’re months behind where we need to be because Trump et al didn’t realize or believe it was their job to deal with this… like so many private sector executives in countless other scenarios they assumed someone else was supposed to deal with it. Judging form the daily “briefings” they still don’t get it. They still don’t seem to realize that they need to organize a coordinated national response, they’re just playing whack-a-mole on a case by case basis.

  10. Submitted by Paul Udstrand on 04/04/2020 - 10:35 am.

    By the way, anyone who denies that a universal, fully comprehensive, irrevocable national insurance policy would be a huge advantage in a crises like this is being facile. We need this NOW and we don’t have it, and it’s getting people killed. The idea that we’ll just “increment” our way into a health care system we need today… decades from now; is not only immoral, but cruel and irresponsible.

    • Submitted by Paul Udstrand on 04/05/2020 - 10:05 am.

      You small govmint guys are funny. You’re instinct is to blame the government, but a guy you idolize in charge of THAT government so these stock criticisms are incoherent.

      No one can accuse Trump of running a “big” government, he’s private sectored our government more than any other president in history, and THAT government is the one that’s failing on a historical level. You can blame the CDC and FDA but those are Trump’s CDC and FDA, he’s been “re-organing” them for nearly 4 years now and they’re remade in his bankrupt prone image. You guys all thought putting a business guy in charge of the government would yield a miracle, so now your blaming the deep state for Trump’s failures. The guys literally trying to run the government like an episode of “The Apprentice” with two competing “teams” (Kushner vs. Pence) the level of incompetence and inefficiency is mind boggling.

      If this had happened in the 1st of Trump’s presidency enough of the government might have still been intact to deal with this, but after 3+ years of mismanagement, nepotism, and self aggrandizement, we’re all just screwed. Whenever anyone actually tries to do their job, Trump fires them for being agents of the Deep State.

  11. Submitted by joe smith on 04/04/2020 - 12:04 pm.

    This is not a private sector issue, it is another big Govt agency issue. The CDC goes through the FDA to get medical masks approved. They were totally unprepared for this crisis. To show how nimble the private sector is compared to lumbering big agencies, Mike “My Pillow” guy from Minnesota, reshuffled his manufacturing line to produce masks within days.

    • Submitted by Pat Berg since 2011 on 04/05/2020 - 08:24 am.

      The masks from the pillow factory in Minnesota are cotton face masks, not medical grade N95 masks which are capable of blocking particles which are sub-micron in size. A cotton face mask will never do that (at least not while still being breathable).

    • Submitted by richard owens on 04/05/2020 - 11:06 am.

      At least in one respect, this is a private sector issue. Minnesota hospitals are losing thirty million dollars A DAY.

      Hospitals had already been closing in some rural areas, where the cost of maintaining certain facilities (OBGYN, for example) was more than the usage could justify (too expensive to sustain.) Other states who refused Medicaid expansion can’t keep their private hospitals and clinics afloat to treat an influx of older or more vulnerable patients, for lack of money.

      Our healthcare system is designed for profit and competition, even where there is no more competition due to closures.

      The CDC is not as big a problem as a collapsing economy that can no longer deliver services due to NOT ENOUGH MONEY. Administrators of private hospitals hardest job is to keep costs down and quality up while drug resistant bacteria create even more risk for basic surgeries.

      Joe, I can’t understand why you would be blaming the one agency that is helping these hospitals get testing and guidance out to the American people who are so confused that some think it is all a petty political game.

      If healthcare was a human right (as it is among the religious who see all humans as their family), the costs would COME OFF THE TOP of our federal tax revenues.

      • Submitted by joe smith on 04/05/2020 - 12:50 pm.

        CDC and FDA did not do their job in 2009 with H1N1 virus and continue to be slow, cumbersome, over regulated and behind in this round of viruses. That is their job to be prepared, claiming they are trying is not enough. WHO is worse!! The absolute last thing our country needs is more Government run agencies being in charge of national Health. The thought of a more powerful World Health Organization, is even more scary.

    • Submitted by Pat Berg since 2011 on 04/05/2020 - 12:34 pm.

      Paul’s comment would also seem to be very appropriately placed here:

      https://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2020/04/theres-nobody-in-america-thats-prepared-why/#comment-1257513

  12. Submitted by Dennis Wagner on 04/05/2020 - 10:36 am.

    Joe, the message is; we were prepared and had many warnings, competent people in place etc. etc. etc. but your fearless leader screwed it all up,(incompetence) got rid of all those “deep state” warning systems and professionals, didn’t believe the sirens and flashing lights and experts when they went off, now your claim appears to be the lights weren’t bright enough, the sirens weren’t loud enough and the Pillow guy came to our rescue and the 3M folks (pounding out masks by the millions) are clueless, and the guy running things (your fearless leader/expert “Trump” on fixing everything wrong on the world) is not to be blamed that it’s all screwed up!

    • Submitted by joe smith on 04/05/2020 - 12:58 pm.

      Sorry Dennis but no! These agencies have become bloated, over staffed by bureaucrats (who under Obama actually had CDC looking into gun violence), lost their purpose and continue to get more tax dollars every year like clockwork. Time to take all these huge agencies down to bare bones and get them back on track towards doing what they were originally designed to do. Massive Big Government run amok is what we are looking at right now.

      • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/05/2020 - 04:20 pm.

        Joe, again, you use the usual buzzwords, but you don’t discuss the specific ways in which the CDC, FDA, or WHO should change. Based on your expertise in pandemic response I would like to see precisely how such an organization should function. Please be specific.

        • Submitted by joe smith on 04/05/2020 - 06:49 pm.

          Brian, you don’t have to be a mechanic to understand when you leave a Midas if your brakes are working. You don’t have to be a pandemic expert to see a Big Government 7+BILLION a year budget agency like the Center for Disease Control try to play catch-up to this disease. They had one testing center open when this started. The CDC sent out kits on February 7th but on the 8th many labs said the tests were faulty. As a result the test results could only be read in CDC head lab. There was a 3 week delay by CDC getting tests to public-labs, not very efficient. Where are the daily guidelines of how to improve your own immune system? Why are we not putting all resources towards the elderly and those with compromised immune systems? 85% of the population will have no or moderate flu like symptoms of Coronavirus, why treat them the same as the vulnerable? Since the H1N1 debacle in 2009 the CDC has had over 70 BILLION dollars of tax payer money come through it.. A little preparation is not too much to ask.

          As far as the WHO goes, they claimed moderate global risk in late January. Totally disregarded what was going on in China, I wonder why??

          • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/05/2020 - 08:44 pm.

            Again, Joe, you didn’t really offer any concrete solutions based on your expertise on this matter. You mostly asked more questions.

            Remember that Trump has been President for 3.5 years now. He only hires the best people. His people are In charge of these agencies–have been for years.

            Remember this? “Only I can fix it”.
            Now we have: “I take no responsibility at all.”

            Perhaps what is missing from your vague complaints about these agencies is who is in charge. Leadership matters and when you have people who believe that government is the problem you end up with a problematic government. Perhaps direct your complaints there. Maybe some sorta pandemic response team was needed? Right?

            As for China, Trump was also publically disregarding what was going on in China for many weeks.

      • Submitted by Dennis Wagner on 04/05/2020 - 07:42 pm.

        Bloated? Support your accusation, looks more like a Trump line of BS to rally the clueless! Then why is great leader having such a hard time getting things going, he has had 3 years and counting? So the was looking into gun violence means what? Seems you are good with it, especially when they knock off a dozen or so school kids,you know like Sandy Hook and Parkland, we know, 8 year olds should be packing! So what does bare bones look like? And how do you know? Perhaps we should take the military down to bare bones as well, you are aware they are 10X of next closest, talk about bloated! Show some evidence, from here is just looks like more 101 Trump BS, keep pushing the BS W/O support, Sorry, I would need the IQ of a rock to follow that line of thinking, (it is because I said so)! .

        • Submitted by joe smith on 04/06/2020 - 09:45 am.

          Adding to the problem is the CDC’s guidelines as to who can get tested:
          Hospitalized patients
          Residents of long care facilities with symptoms
          65 years or older with symptoms
          1st responders with symptoms
          Those with underlying conditions with symptoms
          Without knowing how many people have had Coronavirus, how can you have an accurate account of death rate, recovery rate, hospital rate or any meaningful statistic? Don’t believe you need to be a pandemic expert to figure that out.
          On a positive note, Dr. Zelenko in NYC, treated 200 patients that fell into the above categories, with Hydroxychloroquine, Z-pac and Zinc with a 100% success rate. He simply followed the S. Korean protocol. I guess Hydroxychloroquine does work. Who could’ve known??

          • Submitted by Dennis Wagner on 04/06/2020 - 11:03 am.

            Well Joe, simple response, you can’t have a rationale conversation with an irrational person.Just keep pumping your conspiracy theories and 101 BS. Sorry I can’t help you find reality.

            • Submitted by Dennis Wagner on 04/06/2020 - 05:04 pm.

              PS: Seems your miracle drug maker, paid a fair amount of $ for access to Trump!
              https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/major-producer-of-hydroxychloroquine-once-paid-michael-cohen-hefty-sum-for-access-to-trump/ar-BB12eeHz?li=BBnb7Kz

              Whats new? same old Quid-Pro-quo, same old Trump! Same old corruption.

            • Submitted by joe smith on 04/06/2020 - 06:22 pm.

              Dennis, I see where Governor Cuomo asked President Trump for more Hydroxychloroquine. I thought it did not work.

              • Submitted by Dennis Wagner on 04/07/2020 - 11:30 am.

                Well Joe, Cuomo: “Use of antimalarial drug in New York hospitals ‘anecdotally’ positive” You are aware of what the word “anecdotally” means? Here is some more “anecdotal evidence” that we have had in our history!
                https://gizmodo.com/blowing-smoke-up-your-ass-used-to-be-literal-1578620709
                We have (had) a system in place that uses proven methods and statistics to try and keep the population safe. Is it perfect no, is it worthy of consideration yes. According to you, just ask Dr. Trump, all those other doctors are quacks!

                New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said Monday that early responses to the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine “anecdotally” suggest its use in the coronavirus fight has been “effective,” but that official data was still forthcoming.

                Asked about the progress of the trials at his daily press briefing, Cuomo noted that state officials have allowed use of the drug in combination with the antibiotic Zithromax in hospitals “at their discretion.” He said the federal government would increase supplies to New York pharmacies, but that New York has imposed a 14-day limit to protect the supplies for people who rely on it to treat other medical conditions.

                “The tests in the hospital, they’re too short a period of time to get a scientific report,” Cuomo said. “Hospital administrators, doctors want to have a significant data set before they give a formal opinion. Anecdotally, you’ll get suggestions that it has been effective. But we don’t have any official data yet from a hospital or a quote-unquote study, which will take weeks if not months.”

                “There has been anecdotal evidence that it is promising; that’s why we’re going ahead,” he added, noting that some patients have a pre-existing condition or medication regimen that prevents them from taking it.

                An increase in the supply from the federal government, Cuomo added, would allow New York to lift the 14-day restriction.

                President Trump has repeatedly promoted the drug as a treatment for the virus despite lack of approval by the Food and Drug Administration for that use in the long-term or comprehensive clinical trial data, although the agency has granted emergency approval for use with a prescription. White House trade adviser Peter Navarro and National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Anthony Fauci have reportedly been at odds over whether to promote the drug as an effective treatment for the coronavirus.

                “The data are really just, at best, suggestive. There have been cases that show there may be an effect, and there are others to show there’s no effect,” Fauci said on CBS’s “Face the Nation” Sunday. “So I think in terms of science, I don’t think we could definitively say it works.”

                Of course from your stand point evidently; Dr. Fauci is one of those deep state quacks, just ask Doctor Trump or Dr. Joe Smith! Maybe it will prove effective and maybe it won’t, it doesn’t make Trump or Joe Smith a Madam Curie! And of course I am really a bad guy because I won’t buy into this based on anecdotal evidence and would like to hear what the science guys say first. And if it does work, I guess Trump will be asking for the Noble peace prize for medicine. And of course, a possibility, it works, but we find out only on say 30-40% of the population, Trump rushes the all clear (its what he does) )and surprise we have a 2nd-3rd round of out breaks because 60% think they are immune but aren’t and start integrating back into society. Yeah, I know I’m just one of those deep state mainstream media pessimistic lefties that doesn’t see Trump’s “stable genius”

                • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/07/2020 - 12:30 pm.

                  Thank you, Dennis! I think we need to rely on Dr. Fauci as opposed to Dr. Joe:

                  ‘Reporters asked both men — first Fauci, then Trump — if a malaria drug called hydroxychloroquine could be used to prevent COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus. A day earlier, when Fauci wasn’t with him at that briefing, Trump had called attention to the drug.

                  On Friday, Fauci took the reporter’s question and got right to the point.

                  “No,” he said. “The answer … is no.

                  “The information that you’re referring to specifically is anecdotal,” Fauci added firmly. “It was not done in a controlled clinical trial, so you really can’t make any definitive statement about it.”’

                  https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/trump-fauci-president-doctor-spar-unproven-drug-69718358

          • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/06/2020 - 11:25 am.

            Zelenko’s claims, however, rest solely on taking him at his word. He has published no data, described no study design, and reported no analysis.

            • Submitted by joe smith on 04/06/2020 - 05:01 pm.

              Doc Zelenko is probably too busy saving lives to do a paper. Hope that doesn’t discourage patients who get Coronavirus from asking for it while trying to save their own life.

              • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/07/2020 - 09:55 am.

                Data, study design, and analysis is what informs other doctors and helps them save lives, Joe.

                • Submitted by joe smith on 04/07/2020 - 10:43 am.

                  Brian, let me get this straight, we wait until the crisis is over to read a paper to see what would have saved people’s lives? That is no way to preform a valuable service, like administrating life saving care to sickly folks. Now is no time to be a sheep….Very hard to lead when you are scared to death and in the back of the pack.

                  • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/07/2020 - 11:42 am.

                    Joe, you are presenting a false choice, and I think you know that. Doctors and researchers can do both: they can collaborate to produce, compile and review data. I would think that someone with your extensive experience in medical research would undertand that, Joe.

                    • Submitted by joe smith on 04/07/2020 - 12:13 pm.

                      Absolutely no “false choice”, you either use Hydroxychloroquine or you do not. As I said, not to use it because President Trump said to (typical Trump Derangement Syndrome) , is plain stupid. Waiting for months for a study is just as silly.

                    • Submitted by RB Holbrook on 04/07/2020 - 12:18 pm.

                      “As I said, not to use it because President Trump said to (typical Trump Derangement Syndrome) , is plain stupid.”

                      What do you call the people who want to use it just because Trump said to?

                    • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/07/2020 - 12:22 pm.

                      Joe, please review what I said: “Doctors and researchers can do both: they can collaborate to produce, compile and review data.” Joe, I think you are so adamant about supporting everything Trump does that you turn to the imaginary online adversary rather than carefully thinking about what another actual person has said.

                  • Submitted by Brian Nelson on 04/07/2020 - 11:53 am.

                    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0399077X20300858

                    Thoughts, Joe?

                    • Submitted by Edward Blaise on 04/08/2020 - 10:31 am.

                      Science?

                      Trump nation and the President have long ago decided that science is only an annoyance. Apocryphal stories are a far better way to go:

                      “An apocryphal story is one that is probably not true or did not happen, but that may give a true picture of someone or something.”

                      Of course the emphasis here is on “MAY”. Swallowing fish tank cleaner “may” ward off the virus, or maybe not.

                      All of which makes FOX News the official replacement for the Science Channel for Trump Nation.

                      Sean Hannity: The “Bill Nye the Science Guy” of the political right.

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