We need to try to think clearly about what the poll results discussed below mean. They were taken by the Marist poll organization and sponsored by National Public Radio and the PBS NewsHour.
Overall, 61 percent of Americans believe that the results of the 2020 election, showing a Joe Biden victory over Donald Trump, were accurate. Five percent say they are unsure. And 34 percent do not believe the results.
As you would imagine, the disbelievers are overwhelmingly Republicans. Here’s that breakdown, by percent who say they do not “trust” the results.
- Democrats: 95 trust the results, 3 percent do not, 2 percent were unsure.
- Independents: 67 trust/5 percent do not/ and 28 percent unsure.
- Republicans: 24 trust/72 do not trust/4 percent unsure.
I don’t know how literally nor how seriously to take those poll results. I can’t, at the moment, find that similar questions were polled after previous elections. I’ve been on the planet since the Truman administration, but I’m pretty sure we’ve never seen anything like this before in a U.S. presidential election.
It’s worth mentioning that there have been a lot of much closer elections in the past, including, especially, the 2000 Bush vs. Gore election, which was decided by a very small number of votes in one state featuring many vagaries, including the infamous “hanging chads.”
I wouldn’t call Biden’s margins exactly a landslide, but they are very solid margins in both the popular and electoral vote. To “not trust” that Biden won, you would have to believe that several states, including states controlled by Republicans, committed fraud large enough to cheat on tens of thousands, or perhaps hundreds of thousands of ballots.
It makes no sense. It’s creepy. I refer you back to a recent post of mine, linking to a piece by “On Tyranny” author Timothy Snyder, suggesting one of the breeding grounds for the rise of Hitler in post-World War I Germany was the widespread belief in Germany that their country had not really lost World War I but had been “stabbed in the back” by traitors.
To decide how seriously to worry about the huge 72 percent “do not trust” portion of Republicans, and to not freak out unnecessarily, we perhaps need to consider the possibility that many of them really mean something closer to “do not like.” But that would be a leap of faith, or perhaps of hope, and it would do those respondents the unkindness of assuming that they can’t distinguish between what happened and what they wished would happen, but didn’t.
Their leader, Donald John Trump, is telling his supporters that the election was stolen by fraud. Although he has been unable to produce any evidence of that fraud that would convince anyone engaged in a modicum of critical thinking, and has not even been able to get a Supreme Court composed of two-thirds Republican appointees and three appointed by Trump himself to say that the election was stolen from him, still, 72 percent of Republicans “do not trust,” which pretty much means “do not accept” the results.
I can’t cross-examine those numbers to better understand what “do not trust” might mean to them. But it’s not good. It’s very bad. It’s a breeding ground for hyper-partisan divisions ahead. If we take it literally, and especially if we take it seriously, it could threaten the future of democracy in America.
A full write-up of the poll by NPR is here.
And a detailed breakdown of the results by age, gender, region, etc, is here.
It appears that Trump is endeavoring to utilize the the strategy of “The Big Lie”:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels-on-the-quot-big-lie-quot
Sadly, it appears he is having a fair amount of success.
Dems do it too, ala “Russiagate”.
Per BK Anderson below:
“Unfortunately for your position, every subsequent investigation of the 2016 election (contemporaneously requested by both Dems and Repubs) concluded that Russia interfered in the election to aid Trump and that Trump welcomed the aid, with numerous members of his campaign communicating with Russian intelligence operatives.”
Per RB Holbrook below:
“Frankly, I can’t help but think that there are better ways of spending your days than constructing endless ‘both sides do it’ narratives.”
Constructing my days looking for corruption wherever it exists seems preferable to spending my days crafting endless derivations as to why Democrats are pure and Republicans are all that is rotten.
Mr. Duncan, don’t be so glum. Only 72% of Republicans are rotten.
Me thinks he/she craves the attention.
Actually, its not the same at all. The evidence of Russian interference is so overwhelming that even the Senate Republicans investigating it agreed.
Please give us the evidence.
You could start with
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/read-final-senate-intelligence-committee-report-on-russian-election-interference/ar-BB186MZo
And that’s the Republican controlled Senate!
Paul’s link is a good one. But if you regularly read the New York Times or the Washington Post, this would be common knowledge. Sadly, too many Americans read pretend news like Newsmax or the Intercept or Jacobin and have no idea what is actually happening in the real world.
The New York Times has supported every modern war in which the USA has been engaged and fired Chris Hedges, one of the few modern journalists to learn the language of the area in which he was posted and actually be on the ground, because he opposed the Iraq War. Meanwhile, the Washington Post’s owner, definitely a plutocrat if not a kleptocrat, sits on a Pentagon Board. While you read and believe what is written in these papers, I prefer to believe submissions from Hedges, Max Blumenthal, Danny Sjursen, Ray McGovern, Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, and some other reputable journalists who are not bootlickers for the establishment.
I’m glad I am not the only one here who regularly reads people critical of imperialism and the organs of State.
Also, Bezos does not merely sit on a Board at the Pentagon, his Amazon Cloud holds all the secrets of the CIA.
Well, that explains why you are unaware of basic facts. Those people aren’t journalists. They are fiction writers. People with little or no grasp of reality. Conspiracy theorists. You are feeding yourself a steady diet of nonsense.
Indeed, the only people in the history of the world who know anything about anything at all work for WaPo or the NYT. All hail infallible Bezos! All hail infallible Sulzberger!
But you will be happy to know, that harbringer of truth and justice Ajit Pai at the FCC is on your side, ending net neutrality, and Google etc titan tech used the justification of Russian Interference to throttle traffic to all non-corporate media outlets!
Freedom of Speech in America!
Those Senate Repubs are Russophobes just as much as many of their Dem counterparts, happy to maintain Cold War 2.0 and the grotesque war profiteering that supports. Many of them secretly or not so secretly despise Trump as much as any Dem. So I’m not sure why any clear thinker imagines the Senate Intel committee accomplished any more in 1100 pages what Mueller could not accomplish in 700.
Thankfully there was absolutely no Russian interference in this recent election, despite dire warnings that Russia was a threat to our very democracy. That, and there will be no investigation as to Russian interference since the right guy won…
There actually was Russian interference in this election. It just didn’t rise to the same level as in 2016 because we were prepared for it. That said, you can see that some of it got through to Americans. To those who have been reached, if a Republican agrees that there was interference, it’s because they’re Russophobes.
Maybe I’m the only one here who remembers the CIA, through their mockingbirds at WaPo, claiming right before the Nevada and South Carolina primaries, Russia was helping Bernie. It was the headline. Speaking of very serious and also quite transparent election interference. Except no evidence of Russia supporting Bernie was ever presented.
I am not sure what to make of your comment, as it oversimplifies a sensitive and complicated societal and governmental problem. I wonder what we all might think if we were able to read the full and uncensored version of the Muller report. perhaps you have had the opportunity to do so, but I have not. I also wonder what credibility the Senate Intelligence Committee has, given their position on Russian interference. Rationalizing trumps cynical manipulation of his supporters by equating his post election histrionics with something the Democrats did or or did not do makes no sense to me. There is a right and a wrong.
I also think that there is a larger problem for the country that many are missing; that being the lack of moral leadership by trump and many Republican lawmakers. There is a truth about Russian interference in 2016. There is a truth about trump not winning the election in 2020. These truths are not partisan, and certainly not the product of the selfish grifting that trump is carrying out. it has been clear to me since 1968 that neither party is flawless, and power corrupts whether D or R, but the depth of the psychopathology of impeached a president trump is noteworthy, and no amount of rationalization can make him healthy or good for this country.
I’m not rationalizing Trump’s and his supporter’s delusions about the election or his presidency, as every one here is quite happy to tear him and them down. I’m here to point out that it is part of the pathology of this nation to be so willing to call the “other” pathological, but so very unwilling to hold “my side” accountable for anything.
As for Russiagate, no one says Russia did not interfere. I simply point out, the facts are like a molehill, but the media, Dems and a few Repubs turned those molehill facts into a volcano of nonsense.
Russian interference in out elections, that is the facts thereof, seem to me to be much more than a molehill, and examining that would represent a good operational definition of accountability, especially at the presidential level given that the president is sworn to protect and defend. The trump administration had no taste for that, again a profound moral failure by leadership. The alternative to someone examining Russian interference is no one examining Russian interference, and that would be and is incompetent governance. if you are asserting that President (Hillary) Clinton would not have investigated Russian interference in our election, then your minimizations of trumps grievous and manipulative leadership are correct. but that conclusion would beg the question.
Trump said it best when he claimed ‘I love the poorly educated’. And they love him. The poll referenced in this article seems to support his assertion.
“Fair amount of success” The “big lie”, I think you have 2 very interesting and related points, the “big lie” is that T**** does not believe he won the election and he does not believe it was unfair, but he has to keep promoting the con-game to keep the $ flowing into his pockets “success”! Just another con by the greatest of all cons, and look at all those that are in it with him. They could care less about destroying America, and the election system, its about keeping the $ making con going.
Back in 2016, nearly half of Democrats believed the election was rigged (many still do), so it is not like this is unprecedented, or merely a Republican problem. It is more like, in a state of hyper partisanship treating democracy like war, when one side embraces pathology, the other side doubles down on pathology in response. Democrat belief in a rigged (by Russia) election in 2016 is like a dark mirror of Republican delusions about this “rigged” election, and probably the “other side” will feel even more like the election was rigged regardless of facts, in 2024, whatever the outcome.
“This is very bad” indeed, that both sides are incapable of seeing their own culpability in spreading a lack of faith in the system. One side claiming for four years that the other side is illegitimate makes both sides illegitimate over time.
https://thefederalist.com/2016/11/18/nearly-half-democrats-think-election-rigged/
IF by “rigged” you mean “conducted under rules intended to suppress votes,” or “subject to electoral maps drawn to favor one party over another,” then yes, the 2016 election was rigged. It’s not just Democrats saying that. The League of Women Voters has made the same argument. How far that rigging influenced the overall outcome is perhaps debatable, but it was very real. It was also rigged by virtue of the inherently non-representative nature of the Electoral College.
That is as far as your equivalency goes, however. The rigging was done through legislative means that adhered to the letter, if not the spirit, of the Constitution. There was no secret cabal funded by a rootless cosmopolitan intimidating ballot-counters. The rigging was in place before election day, and was obvious.
Frankly, I can’t help but think that there are better ways of spending your days than constructing endless “both sides do it” narratives.
That’s what you do when you know that the evidence shows that your side did it. When you can’t prove innocence, the next best thing is to claim that everyone is guilty.
Republicans have attempted to suppress the vote in general elections, but the Democrats have been guilty of shenanigans in their own primaries. An example being that in 2016 thousands were tossed off the voter rolls in Brooklyn during the NY primary, and Brazile fed questions to Hilary and Wasserman Schultz scheduled debates when very few people would be watching.
There is an old political truism, “Dems steal primaries and Republicans steal elections.” True as far as it goes. My own feeling is, both sides at the elite level are willing to game the system.
You are correct in that Bernie Sanders and his hardcore supporters are a lot like Trump and his. The nonsense about the voting rolls in NY is the kind of delusional garbage we are seeing from Trump now. Her NY margin far exceeded the votes in question, and Clinton absolutely demolished Sanders in NYC. And the online abuse was very similar – the amount of hate people had to endure for supporting Elizabeth Warren was absurd. As bad as the worst bile from Trump supporters.
And while the Brazile debate thing was bad, its biggest result was it gave the Sanders dead-enders something to endlessly whine about. Its not like the election was close.
You also have to remember that Sanders benefited greatly from voter-suppressing caucuses. And then the next time around Sanders tried to prevent ending caucuses – he fought for voter suppression. He wanted to limit who could vote.
The worst Trump-like behavior was the Sanders supporters who wanted to give him the nomination despite getting millions of fewer votes. Fortunately, like what is happening today, that kind of anti-democratic nonsense doesn’t prevail.
I never said that Sanders and his supporters are much like Trump and his. Perhaps you should read comments before responding.
Well, I’m not sure what you were saying then. If you are talking about NY, then how you not be talking about the dishonesty of Sanders supporters. That nonsense is exactly the kind of garbage we are getting from the Trump campaign today.
Solly Johnson was speaking of the 2016 Democratic primary. I think he’s correct about that.
https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/politics/campaigns-elections/new-york-city-purged-voters-2016-it-wasnt-mistake.html
“You also have to remember that Sanders benefited greatly from voter-suppressing caucuses. And then the next time around Sanders tried to prevent ending caucuses – he fought for voter suppression. He wanted to limit who could vote.
“The worst Trump-like behavior was the Sanders supporters who wanted to give him the nomination despite getting millions of fewer votes. Fortunately, like what is happening today, that kind of anti-democratic nonsense doesn’t prevail.”
I agree with you that “that sort of anti-democratic nonsense” should not prevail. But it’s news to me that Bernie Sanders is guilty of voter suppression of any kind.
Oh I am quite familiar with that story. My objection is to the dishonest narrative of some Bernie Sanders supporters that this was part of stealing the election for Clinton. Again, the election wasn’t close and these votes were in areas that overwhelmingly supported Clinton. What he is doing here is spewing the same kind of conspiracy nonsense that Trump supporters are spewing.
And I’m not surprised you haven’t heard that about Sanders. Like the Trump campaign, the Sanders followers operated in a fact free zone much of the time. Other than Sanders’s policies being much better (IMO) than Trump’s, the two have a lot of similarities. As set forth above – wanting to disenfranchise voters and overturn democratic results. Massive egos. Facts optional. Only abuse and rampant misogyny by supporters. Cult-like following.
I won’t deny that there are apparently some citizens who became so “hard core” that they jumped the shark , so to speak, to find some similar appeal in Trump. I don’t claim to understand that any more than I can understand what anyone in this country found appealing in Trump. We and historians will be debating this for whatever time the human race or civilization remains on this little planet. The only thing that makes any sense to me, as a disappointed Bernie supporter, is that Trump came across to a rather large segment of working people that the Democratic Party abandoned in the 1990’s under Bill Clinton’s term and the heyday of the DLC. Thomas Frank has documented and explained this quite well in his books, “Listen, Liberal” and “The People, No!”
There is a sense of the Democratic Party’s repudiation of the ideals of the New Deal and the Fair Deal that are felt by many people. I believe it. I dare say, Trump came across to many of them as a sort of modern day FDR with his bravado and rhetoric. Indeed, Trump has demonstrated a frightening power of demagoguery to seize control of people’s minds. So, why don’t we agree that your comments are true only insofar as they pertain to “some hard-core former Sanders’ followers” and not to most Sanders’ supporters? After all, Sanders himself urged his supporters to support and vote for HRC and then Biden. The results of this 2020 election I think establishes most of us did.
I think that’s fair. I have a number of good friends who supported Bernie, and most of them were reasonable and nice.
I’ve never seen here, nor have I ever met a Bernie fan anything like what you describe. As for all you accuse them of, the first rule of psychology that should be taught in grade school is the concept of projection. Which goes for a lot of the vitriol thrown at Trump supporters here too. The first rule of statistics that should be taught to kids is that a few online examples do not a scientific Theory make.
Don’t take my word for it. Take Elizabeth Warren’s. The horrible treatment her supporters received probably deterred her from endorsing Sanders. His supporters (his hardcore ones) were at toxic as Trump’s.
I don’t doubt that a few of Bernie’s hard core supporters were as nasty as the worst of Trump supporters – socialists of the sort can be as nasty or worse than fascists. However, in this age of disinformation, I’d be willing to bet, a number of those vitriolic monsters might not have been Bernie supporters at all, but intelligence contractors or corporate mercenaries, or even Trump supporters thinking Trump good beat Bernie more easily.
As for 90+% if Bernie supporters, mostly peaceful types hungry for real change that serves them and not corp, bank and billionaire.
Neither political party cares about the will of the people. The large majority of Americans want Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, free public university education, monthly payments to the unemployed during the pandemic, Social Security and Medicare protected and expanded, withdrawal from Afghanistan, Iraq, and other foreign areas, and Biden doesn’t promote these concepts, just as Trump didn’t. It’s a fact that the living standards of Americans having been declining for the past four decades, whether the government is controlled by Republicans or Democrats, since they are both beholden to Wall Street, Silicon Valley, and the military/industrial network.
At least our living standards still place us at the top of the world. Any country where people choose to be homeless can’t be all that bad.
Actually we’re about 15th.
see https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country
A large military doesn’t make a high standard of living; it siphons off goods and services.
OK, we’re only in the top 15 of who knows how many. I forgot about the Nordic countries. That and that “happiness” is one of the main standards used. In a liberal nation there are a lot of unhappy people. Because conservatives tend to be happier than liberals the USA tends to be dragged down by it’s happiness rank. I thought that our “wealth” rank would help given how many million and billionaires we have but they’re probably unhappy that they don’t have more.
“Because conservatives tend to be happier than liberals . . .”
Congratulations. You have just said the funniest thing I have read this month.
The American conservative is nothing if not a fountain of complaints. Are they happier because they love to kvetch?
If Repubs are full supporters of autocracy, then own the fact that Dems support plutocracy.
What has Mickey Mouse’s dog got to do with it?
He’s not a planet anymore.
Your making fun of it makes my point, that many Liberal Democrats support in the main, plutocracy, which they call by turns democracy or meritocracy:
As defined by Merriam Webster:
Definition of plutocracy
1: government by the wealthy
2: a controlling class of the wealthy
“Your making fun of it makes my point . . .”
On what planet is that proof?
The Dem Party 50-70 years ago. But the modern Dem party serves it’s corporate and bank masters chiefly. Clinton and Obama on economics governed more like Reagan. We will see how Biden governs. Many a corp and bank is charted in his home state, so I expect what they want they will get.
Comparing the ACA to Medicare or Social Security is like saying we should hand all the funding and control of Social Security and Medicare to private equity and insurance companies.
If the Electoral College is “rigged” in the way you claim, then how do you explain Biden eking out a win? As for legislative tinkering to give Repubs an advantage, Dems could have done something about that in this Census year with a better showing down-ballot. But the DNC was tone deaf again, failing to listen to local concerns, trying to micromanage local politicians, and throwing hundreds of millions at elections they lost terribly badly. Meanwhile the DNC blames it on “lefties” and “socialism”, much like they deflected blame in 2016.
Repubs btw don’t like it much either when I call out their hypocrisy.
“If the Electoral College is “rigged” in the way you claim, then how do you explain Biden eking out a win?”
The Electoral College is designed to tilt the balance towards smaller, less populated states. The rigging was accomplished over 200 years ago in Philadelphia.
“As for legislative tinkering to give Repubs an advantage, Dems could have done something about that in this Census year with a better showing down-ballot. ”
In other words, the Democrats would have won more if they had won more elections in the past. That doesn’t mean the deck wasn’t stacked.
It’s simple. If we had one person/one vote (a true democracy) we’d have had a lot more Democratic Presidents and Senators.
If Dems are so convinced the system is rigged against them and are so very clear that how of it, then why do they seem incapable of doing anything about it? If Repubs have been successful in rigging things, why can’t Dems get it together enough to make it fair? These are questions worth asking.
Meanwhile, indeed, I am not saying both sides do the same thing, what I am saying is one side is not inherently good while the other is inherently evil. Both parties are corrupted in serious and fundamental ways, and yet partisans act as if their own side is pure and just comparatively, and so allow the corruption to turn to rot.
I’m just enough of a Calvinist to believe that all human institutions are inherently flawed and incapable of perfection.
Calling out wrongdoing by one party is nothing like claiming the other party is blameless. Insisting on pointing out that both sides have done wrong is a cheap form of nihilism that at best confuses the issue, and at worst, is a distraction from real wrongdoing (when you were younger, did you ever get out of trouble by pointing out what another kid did? Did anyone even care?).
I’m not a Republican delusional about a rigged election trying to get out of trouble for something I know is wrong – I’m a concerned citizen alarmed by vitriolic hyper partisanship, stuck between blue and red rivers of hate, trying to point out to the travelers on this blue river, there is a waterfall ahead.
I remind people here about corruption on the Dem side because I don’t hear any serious critique of the Democratic Party here, only screeds about how awful Republicans are.
I what way are you a Calvinist?
I believe all human institutions are inherently flawed and incapable of perfection. That idea has a storied hisotry in the United States (it was what led Roger Williams to settle Rhode Island).
Most of the rest of it is ridiculous.
You’re aware of the high bar for Constitutional amendments right? Yep them Dems just have to “get it together”…
It would help if you recognized that the “Dems” are one Democratic Party which is not really one party but a coalition of multiple factions. Right now it includes a large number of voters who were once Republicans, including even George W. Bush Republicans, who couldn’t and can’t stomach what their Party has become under Trump. It also includes a large number of Progressives who are Social Democrats or Democratic Socialists. What’s been happening over the past few decades, since Bill Clinton, or maybe since Lyndon Johnson, is a realignment of political power under these different factions into new coalitions. This realignment is happening in plain view in caucuses, in board rooms, in money flowing into campaigns and behind the cloak of the dark money in political campaigns. The reality is we live in a complex, multipolar political world, not a simplistic bipolar political world of R’s and D’s.
Unfortunately for your position, every subsequent investigation of the 2016 election (contemporaneously requested by both Dems and Repubs) concluded that Russia interfered in the election to aid Trump and that Trump welcomed the aid, with numerous members of his campaign communicating with Russian intelligence operatives. So that “half of Democrats” was entirely justified in suspecting that Russia had unfairly influenced the election on Trump’s behalf. The evidence bore out their suspicions.
And not many of them doubted the accuracy of the actual vote count. So apples to oranges.
“Evidence” of Russian interference amounts mostly to repeating “Mueller said” and “the Intelligence committee said”, without ever much in the way of actual details such as, “this is the specific evidence that Russian interference rigged the election in favor of Trump. Without it he would not be president.”
In fact, most of the liberal belief in Russian interference is the result of endless empty stories about the evil that is Russia/Putin ad nauseam, media breathlessness for four years, like a lot of the “an anonymous intelligence source said” sort, and little to now followup after the news cycle has shifted and the “evidence” turns out to be propaganda.
The idea that the investigations came to their conclusions without actual hard evidence is both ridiculous and a sign of unreason. You can read them whenever you’d like and not rely exclusively on Greenwald’s hot takes.
And you have no idea what was in people’s minds by the use of the word “rigged”. Nor do you have any idea of the number of people whose votes were affected by Russia’s information warfare. Also you might look at the words I actually wrote, and not what you think (or wish) I wrote….
And as for the baseless assertion of “little to no follow-up after the new cycle has shifted and the ‘evidence’ turns out to be propaganda”, the final (bipartisan) Senate Intelligence Committee report came out a little over 3 months ago, which pretty much belies your narrative “frame”…
But excellent work hijacking the thread again! (And I acknowledge my complicity in falling for it…)
Admit it…you love it 🙂
In April of this yr a REP requested investigation of the 2016 election was made. In Aug the Intel Comm made public an almost 1000 pg report verifying everything the Mueller report did. Dud most Americans hear about this or know about this? No. Why? Because it would have made the REPs eat crow and they couldn’t have that. Esp not in an election with their very own fascist in the White House! So it was smothered as much as possible:( From my old age perspective, the DEMs are too nice. They play by the rules. The REPs play dirty and nasty, then call the DEMs radicals, socialists and communists. They repeat this crap incessantly til their constituents. Then to put the cherry on top, they all demand that the DEMs fix it all. WTH is wrong with this picture?! It is massive projection and wild dysfunction, disingenuous, and completely implausible. It is schoolyard bullies acting out yet blaming everyone else. And I am not alone in claiming: I am sick to death of it! Enough already! I wouldn’t put up with this from kids. I surely won’t from adults.
It seems no amount of facts or reason can change your mind on this.
When the only facts that are Truth with a capital T, particularly on economics or war, are those sanctioned by the State and Corporate media, what you have is not Democracy but plutocracy, autocracy and or oligarchy. Reason in such a climate tends to be more like group think-true belief that can’t be questioned.
There’s a difference between interfering in an election (which the Russians were clearly shown to do) and altering the results of the election which few Dems are willing to assert as an established fact.
Why exactly do you find Putin so enrapturing, is it his supposed prowess on the hockey rink? Maybe shirtless bear wrestling? It’s really quite amusing.
Sure you don’t mean bare wrestling?
“Maybe shirtless bear wrestling?”
If we are talking about Russia, I suspect the above usage is correct.
My rapture for Putin is like my rapture for Trump or Obama, nonexistent. It is reminiscent of the time you called me a payed plant, sowing dissension for money, when all I’m really doing here is trying to protect the powerless from the powerful, and trying to counter the blind march toward war. How you or anyone here interprets my advocacy for working people, the land, waters and pollinators from wealthy forces laying waste to such people and things, into support for Trump or Putin, is not really an indictment of my character at least.
Sometimes you have to read beyond the headline. And also read beyond the partisan article. If you actually look at the yougov 2016 poll results, you’ll see that a total of 20% of Democrats described their view as “Not too confident” or “Not at all confident”. Contrast that with the Republican view of the 2020 election where 72% has that view.
The article in the Federalist conveniently added “I did not vote” and “not sure” to come up to their claim of “nearly 50%” . So they took 20%, inflated it to 42%, then further inflated that to “nearly half”. I give them 4 Pinocchios.
Ah, the Federalist. That explains a lot about you, your thinking and beliefs, and your information sources. The current untenable situation now is what approx 43 years of REP lying to their constituents, and ever-increasing sources of planned, purposeful propaganda have wrought. So the Q becomes: how does America now overcome this horrific situation and regain it’s footing and standing in the world?? The recovery process wb similar to that of an abused spouse. Separate from the abuser. Seek help from trained, knowledgeable experts. Get the skills & training to enable personal growth and independence. Start a new life down a different path. Break off all communications w the abuser. Use the courts if necessary. Build new relationships w healthier, wiser, strongers. Put the past in the past–and the abuser in jail–and move on w resilience and steadfastness.
I admit, I did not go to the poll the Federalist cited. They took liberties. I do not care about the Federalist, I don’t read it. I should be more discerning, I can admit.
A basic difference:
In 2016 Trump lost by millions of votes.
In 2020 Biden won by millions of votes.
I think you need to read Mr. Black’s article.
The Supreme Court’s interference with the 2016 presidential election by pre-empting the actions of the state court, stopping recounts and effectively declaring Bush the winner are a matter of public record.
The Federalist article I posted was BS. Sorry about that. I will be more discerning.
Here is another article from the WaPo, a full third of Clinton voters thinking the election was illegitimate. A full third is stll a precedent for 2020 Republican delusions.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/13/one-third-of-clinton-supporters-say-trump-election-is-not-legitimate-poll-finds/
So you’re saying:
1. The incidence of Clinton doubters was less than half that of Trump voters 4 years later as reported a few days after the election.
And the doubters were primarily from groups that have historically seen/experienced corrupt voting practices:
2. “There are sharp racial and gender differences in Clinton supporters’ acceptance of the results. Only 18 percent of whites who supported Clinton say Trump is not the legitimate winner, identical to the public overall, but fully 51 percent of black, Hispanic and other nonwhite Clinton supporters say Trump’s victory was illegitimate.”
And I’m still trying to find out about the death threats, violent protests and law suits from 2016.
Sorry WHD: This “what about” gets 5 Pinnochios….
I suspect (maybe hope is a better term) that a year or two from now some people will still be muttering, but few will take any action beyond voting (if they do) for Republicans, which they would anyway.”
With all due respect to conservatives who post here, Republicans demonstrate a tendency to be easy marks for conmen. It’s hard for a dupe to quit believing when there are so many agents to reinforce the sham.
With any luck a sizable portion of these people will act out their disillusionment and quit voting for a few cycles.
‘…sizable portion of these people will act out their disillusionment and quit voting for a few cycles.”
This is the goal of the mob and the “defenders of democracy” all along.
The massive voter suppression efforts were quite successful judging by voter turnout this year. Without those efforts it is likely that voter participation might well have been over 100%
You win the nonsense of the year award.
Thank you! Voter participation was at record levels across the country, which I pointed out, and is true. The massive suppression efforts seem to have reduced the number of voters by huge (but as of yet uncounted) numbers, which I pointed out and is also true. When the voter suppression figures are completed, we can see if the totals result in more possible votes than voters. Personally, I can’t wait. And I hope the new Congress passes more laws to reduce voter suppression even more. Minnesota certainly will.
Well, not the Senior Senator from Texas:
“Senator John Cornyn took to the Senate floor on Tuesday to announce he “will not support any nominee who doesn’t provide full transparency into their work on behalf of a foreign government.” He added that “the American people deserve to know if these or any future nominees are beholden to anything other than our national interest.”
That we let any person in the House or Senate say such outrageous things and then run and hide is the biggest problem we face, virus included. Say or do stupid stuff and face the consequences of ridicule and scorn causing a drastic reduction in stupid stuff or electoral consequences. Would have been pretty valuable in the Executive branch last February.
I assume that he would not support Trump in 2024.
He plans to endorse him from Putin’s penthouse suite atop the newly opened Trump Tower Moscow in mid 2023…
Repeat after me…”Only legal votes should be counted…again….again…”
These are the same people who believe Trump is a good Christian, so in the absence of loud laughter punctuated with words that would not be approved by the moderators, the answer to your question is “no.”
I know…Russia…Russia…Russia!
I’m not surprised by Trump’s actions.
What’s a bit more perplexing is how the majority of Republicans still continue on this attempt to poison the well of democracy. For most, it may be simple cowardice – not wanting to confront those Trump followers.
But there is another rationale for the majority of Republicans to continue this charade. One that is the “long game” and far more insidious. Consider that in the 11 presidential elections since 1980, Democrats won the popular vote 7 times. And in the 6 presidential elections since 2000, Democrats won the popular vote 5 times. This in spite of Republican efforts to make voting more difficult.
The Republican strategy to cast doubt on election results may be more than a one-off response to Trump and his base, it may be part of a long term strategy to negate the impact of the popular vote in choosing our president (even more than what is done by the electoral college). It’s logical, if extreme. It’s also in keeping with the conservative view that the US is a republic rather than a democracy.
On it’s face, this may sound preposterous. But how many other preposterous ideas have we seen come true in the last four years?
Your hypothesis is hardly preposterous; in fact, it’s very likely accurate.
As Fintan O’Toole recently observed, the Repub party has died as a democratic institution, to be reborn as an undead zombie party, one which is opposed to majority rule and committed to perpetual minority rule. It has no intention of ever again trying to field a presidential candidate who will seek to win majority support. Since Trumpism (and its enthusiastic enabling) was not decisively repudiated by the electorate in 2020, we will see a succession of Trump-like candidates from now on, none of whom will even offer a pretense of trying to obtain the votes of a national majority.
The fact that 18 Repub attorney generals have joined the lawless attempt by Texas to get the Trump majority on the Supreme Court to halt the vote of the electoral college and throw out the electors of GA, PA, WI and MI pretty much indicates the level of support for “democracy” in today’s Repub party.
Republicans may SAY that we’re a Republic, but they ACT as though we’re an oligopoly.
That sb ‘republic’ w a sm ‘r’. America is a republic w democratic (small ‘d’) processes. Not to be confused in any way, shape or form w the 2 political parties (Democrat, Republican).
As a true blooded, Constitution believing, proud American citizen trusting in our system of laws handed down and refined over 200 years, I believe our judicial system can fairly and impartially resolve finding the truth in this election dispute.
At Trump 1 and the people 50 as the current scorecard shows, I think it is safe to say a trend has been detected.
McConnell’s pride and joy is building a more conservative judiciary from the SCOTUS on down. It appears they have spoken. The resolution has nothing to do with Ds stealing primaries or Rs stealing elections, or vice versa or anything else.
We have a reliable way to resolve these things and we are getting awfully close to a final answer that citizens should respect.
If you want to dispute that answer, fine. Just admit you no longer believe in the Constitution and our system of laws and maybe consider renouncing your citizenship as a statement of commitment to your rebellious beliefs. Here’s how:
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
1. Appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. In a foreign country at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate; and.
3. Sign an oath of renunciation.
Don’t let the door hit you on the backside…
A very insightful look at why we are where we are on this dispute is described in the Netflix documentary: The Social Dilemma.
https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
A key point:
Folks now find news sources that are not based on offering information rather on only offering affirmation. If OAN never presents anything I find offensive and disagreeable, that is step up over FOX not even to mention CNN or MSNBC. Go to Facebook or other news feeds and affirmation goes off the charts because they are not catering to a defined demographic, they are catering to you based on your browsing history.
A great example of this was to imagine that if Wikipedia would construct definitions not based on a collaboration of others, but rather a unique definition artificially constructed exactly to your wishes based on all the data gathered from your on line preferences. A different set of facts for everyone based on their preferences.
It is Daniel Patrick Moynihan’s admonition reduced to rubble:
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.”
Not anymore….
It is a false equivalence to say that there are people who exist in their own media bubbles.
That often times more true of conservatives than it is of liberals and moderates.
Here is an entire website, The Moscow Project, that makes the denials by T**** and his campaign’s many ties to Russia, an obvious LIE.
Repeating it here as some kind of fact-free debate on WHD’s part is silly.
JUST READ Duncan, READ.
https://themoscowproject.org/
This is not the first time I have cited the facts in this link to you, right here at MINNPOST.
If we do not respect truth, even when it is evident and backed up with facts, why should we even exchange thoughts?
Very true.
I was 21 years old at the time of Watergate, my first (and proudest) Presidential vote just cast for McGovern. I followed Watergate closely, reading all that I could in the news and later in the books that followed. Fascinating stuff, at least to me at the time.
I now find myself in similar circumstances with the “Russia Hoax” 50 years later.
And if anyone truly believes it was a hoax they should spend sometime with:
The Mueller Report
And then some of the peripheral books that have been published and the offer an informed opinion. And these books do often represent folks with an ax to grind and often require a healthy dose of skepticism, but they do contribute to the “first draft of history” and point to the fact that history will show that it was not the “Russia Hoax”:
Crossfire Hurricane by Josh Campbell
Compromised by Peter Strozk
Crime in Progress: The Secret History of the Trump-Russia Investigation by Glenn Simpson
Where the Law Ends by Andrew Weissmann
Rage by Bob Woodward
Fear by Bob Woodward
Disloyal by Michael Cohen
The Room Where it Happened by John Bolton
A Very Stable Genius by Rucker & Leonnig
The Threat by Andrew McCabe
American Carnage by Tim Alberta
Yes, in fact, I am well aware of (one of) Neera Tanden’s pet projects, officializing “the Resistance” and cultivating Cold War 2.0
Remind me what an arbiter of Truth she is after her hearings for head of the OMB.
It seems that most people, Mr. Black included, seem to just take polls at face value and then add in their biases to paint the picture yet fail to even ask what level do people trust or distrust the recent election. Our world is far from black and white and this poll can be answered almost anywhere in between by those answering the questions. I am sure not everyone in the poll that answered they don’t trust the election believe the far end that it was rigged and a lie. There is no data for concluding all 72% believe that.
Just look at what we have gone through. A pandemic that severely hampered how we vote. People finding ballots in drawers, trunks, garbage bins, and God knows many other places. We’ve had votes sent in late by the post office – shocker, I’m sure. We’ve had voting system counting errors that were not just blips and used by a tremendous number of areas around the country. There have been vote counting where observers were not allowed near them and even removed from the location only to pull out cases full of votes. There are people that have gone under oath saying votes being trucked across state lines and people back dating post marks. We’ve had state courts changing voting rules without decisions by state legislatures and directly against the US Constitution on a variety of reasons other than just late ballots.
Then you get into a MSM that wanted to protect Biden at all costs. No tough questions. No press appearances. Censoring of Biden’s family windfalls and their access. Holding up another round of pathetic polling seasons. Yet we’ve gone through almost 4 years of one of the biggest lies of all as there was zero collusion with Russia. That’s much different than Russia meddling. And the basis from the lie all started with Hillary Clinton buying the false information and having people propagate it, including lies to the FISA court to illegally spy on a campaign. People also don’t forget that the Dem party rigged 2016 for Hillary Clinton.
When you put that together, this is much more than just ‘hanging chads.’ I’m not saying the election was rigged, but when you have seen all of this, people are going to have questions and doubts at many levels. I’m surprised that Dem trust in the election was only 95%. If Trump won, the numbers would probably be reversed because of what we’ve gone through. Still, people can have serious questions about the election and not trust it. But that does not mean they all believe it’s a big lie.
And, Mr. Black should really know that the reference to Nazis just makes his argument just patently false.
In your own words “There is no data for concluding” So do you have anything real, to support all your allegations?
Since Trump got 7 million votes (and counting) fewer than Biden, there would definitely be grounds for suspicion if Trump had won.
Its possible that every single word in your comment is false. I wouldn’t even know where to begin responding.
Well Bob, thanks for trying to explain what this poll might mean, even if it had to be done in Repub-speak. I’m not going to deal (again) with the nonsense of “zero collusion” with Russia; that’s not what the various investigations and reports concluded and not what historians of this era of failure will determine. Numerous Trump campaign officials met with Russian operatives concerning Russia’s interest in aiding a Trump victory. End of story. Read the senate intell report and not OAN.
As for your second paragraph, most of the “claims” recited there are unfounded, and if they were presented to courts in any of the 50-some lawsuits Trump brought, were found to be inadmissible hearsay or baseless misunderstandings. Remember that these determinations were made in state and federal courts in more than 6 different states. And there is no finding of “unconstitutionality” by state courts interpreting state election law–at least not so far. Much of what you complain of was found baseless and reported as such by traditional media, but it is clear from what you write that you (and these 3/4 of Repubs?) don’t trust them, and get your “news” from elsewhere, most likely the new rightwing online media that is springing up in place of Fox to tell “conservatives” what they want to hear. Hell, Trump’s own lawyers refused to argue in court that there was any “fraud” in any state’s election!
You say that one can “not trust” the election but also not think it was “rigged” or a “big lie”. Fine. But then I don’t understand the implication of this secondary position. Are you saying that many Repubs can “not trust” the election but also accept that Biden was the legitimate winner? And if that’s the case, then what do you (and these “questioning” Repubs) think about Trump’s continuing attempts to argue that he “really” won? My sense is that this 76% thinks that it’s quite commendable for Trumpolini to keep making this absurd claim, despite having no evidence of fraud anywhere. Am I wrong?
The report that 72% of Republicans don’t trust the election outcome is troubling on several levels. I agree with bob Peterson that “not trusting” the election outcome doesn’t necessarily mean believing the election was rigged or the outcome reported is a lie. On the other hand, I watched a video of former Congresswoman Michelle Bachman at some sort of Bible conference angrily shouting to an applauding audience that there is no way that Biden won the election.
Mr. Blaise cites to “The Social Dilemma” a netflix documentary. I’ll certainly watch that but I’d like to comment a PBS documentary that a friend referred me to: “Hacking Your Mind.” It’s available for viewing on PBS websites. It’s social scientific and scientific research on brains and thinking and also choice theory. The documentary explains a lot about “them” versus “us” thinking and how advertisers, marketers and governments are using psychology and social science research for mind control. There’s a segment that talks about China’s program for controlling its population with a popular “pokeman” type of game that gives a person points for being a good citizen, which also means demerits for having social media friends who are not what the government considers “bad citizens.” It’s a voluntary game but very popular. If you are living in China and participating in this increasingly popular game, you can earn yourself a very high rating for being a good citizen for your neighbors, not just the government.
We are living in a dark and strange world.
Trump has presented no evidence for his claim, states across the country have all approved of the results and the courts have dismissed the lawsuits, often chastising the attorneys that brought them.
It is good that 28% of Republicans don’t believe Trump. Remembering that half of them consider Trump moral and truthful, the Trump cult’s true believers, that means that we just have to get 23% more Republicans to come to their senses for a majority. That brings hope conservatives starting to deal with things the way they are, not the way they wish they were.
In 2016, there were a lot of Democrats who thought Russia’s help plus voter suppression allowed Trump to win the Electoral College, but did Democrats bring endless lawsuits and demand voters wishes be ignored? Of course not. Democrats believe in democracy, while 72% of Republicans believe in getting their way, even if it means ignoring the Constitution. That is a sad and very dangerous reality.
In related news, Rep. Tom Emmer has just signed on as amicus to the more-than-frivolous Texas action to overturn the election. Reps. Hagedorn and Stauber have not yet followed suit.
Emmer is a pandering tool too afraid to actually respond to his constituents. I’ve written to him, probably close to a dozen times, and received responses twice with canned, irrelevant words. He doesn’t even bother to hire anyone who can intelligently pick the right canned response. I’ve commented on his Twitter feed. Notably, I’ve never seen a supportive comment to his Twitter feed, rarely ANY comments, actually. But when he gets comments, they’re pointing to the pandering, and there’s never a response. He hides behind “town halls” held in small businesses, with only a select few of his constituents able to attend by invitation by phone. Quite frankly, the attorneys participating in the Texas farce HAVE to know that they have no standing. That begs the question whether they are practicing within the ethics boundaries outlined by their state bar organizations…
Well, at least 67% of Independents trust the results. That is heartwarming.
Its weird that Americans overwhelmingly support the policies you cite, but don’t elect politicians that will enact them.
Medicare for all is a good example. The name sounds great. But when you explain to people that it means the government will replace your private healthcare, it becomes extremely unpopular. The devil is in the details.
Total nonsense. Explain to millions of Americans who have lost their jobs and health care, many of them permanently, how Medicare for All is not feasible. The establishment Democrats, which you support and cite, take huge donations from the medical lobby, which is why they refuse to promote a program that would benefit millions.
Oh, its feasible. I’d love to have it. The problem is that what it entails is so unpopular that it has zero chance of passing.
Medicare for all is unpopular with the Democratic and Republican establishment, both of whom are very close in ideology on economic and foreign policy positions, but the vast majority of people support it, even people who identify as Republicans. The issue has zero chance of passing because the Democratic and Republicans in government, beholden to corporate interests, are opposed. This issue demonstrates that neither political party is concerned about the welfare of its citizens.
Sorry Solly, you are obviously not a drag racing fan.
You do not go from 0 to 300 MPH in one second.
The Heritage Foundation Medical Care position paper in the 1990’s begets RomneyCare in MA
RomneyCare begets the ACA in 2009
The ACA begets a hopeful public option in Biden’s term
And that is followed by:
“This public option ain’t so bad, let’s try MFA.
I have a friend from my graduate school days who is a Southern Baptist from Georgia. Unlike the stereotype, however, he is a traditional conservative and is appalled by Trump.
However, given where he lives and his church background, he has friends who do fit the stereotype. Back in 2012, just after Obama won a second term, one of his friends, a resident of a small town, posted on Facebook, “I don’t see how Obama could have won fair and square. Nobody I know voted for him.”
Well, if you’re a white man in a small town in Georgia, it is quite possible that you have never discussed politics with anyone who doesn’t vote Republican.
A couple of years ago, I went to Missouri with my brother to see the eclipse. Driving through Faribault and then rural Iowa and rural Missouri, it was unsettling to see so many Trump signs.
I can very well imagine a Trump supporter in one of those places declaring, “I don’t see how Biden could have won fair and square. Nobody I know voted for him.”
I think the average Republican, especially of the Trump variety, has no real political ideology or belief, other than “do what you’re told by your leader”. So he tells them to deny the election results, they believe it. They’re sheep.
You’re forgetting that they also hate liberals, and cannot conceive of them having any legitimate claim to governance. That transcends Trump, who merely gave the idea its ultimate expression.
Well Eric, you know the first derivative of the 72% is, that they evidently don’t believe that their guy(s) won in red states were he(they) won, i.e. if they won it had to be a rigged election!