[image_caption]Ayomide Ojebuoboh[/image_caption]
My friend worded it perfectly via text: “There is a lot of politeness, but a lack of connectedness in the Midwest.” I think people believe that politeness equates to kindness, but the reality is that politeness equates to a perceived perception of niceness. When you grow up in a culture circled around “politeness” and not connectedness, you create generations focused more on the image of being nice and are left with surface-level conversations.
Surface-level conversations don’t address the real issues and problems in society and essentially lead to avoiding conflict in situations. However, avoiding conflict all the time is not only unhealthy, but also dangerous because if you continually avoid conflict, you miss the opportunity to dive into deeper rooted issues. At the moment, one of the deeply rooted issues that have been avoided in Minneapolis has been racism.
Yes, racism is everywhere, but imagine living in a city where everyone is more worried about “politeness,” where people have avoided these uncomfortable conversations surrounding race for maybe their whole life. I attended an event a few weeks ago where a Black physician mentioned that last year was the first time she felt comfortable talking to her white colleagues or neighbors about race. Imagine how people of color and immigrant communities have been suffocating in silence in a city that considers itself “liberal” for their whole lives. I believe that a big issue for this is because of Minnesota Nice. Unless people decide to collectively dig a little bit deeper than just seeming nice to strangers, Minneapolis will continually be stuck in the same racial issues year after year.
This might be hard to believe, but if you are a white individual living in Minneapolis, I challenge you to look around at your friend group and ask these two questions. 1) Are most of my friends white? and 2) Among my friends who aren’t white, have I ever had deep, rooted conversations with them about their own experiences as a minority before George Floyd was murdered? When answering the first question, if you can only say you have one to three friends who are minorities — your friend group is not diverse. And if your answer is “yes” for question 1 and/or “no” for question 2, this proves my point.
Minnesota Nice causes you to be comfortable in the same friend group with individuals who think, look and act like you for your whole life. And even if you do have a diverse friend group, if you’ve never had any race conversations before George Floyd’s murder, it shows how Minnesota Nice has masked the opportunity for you to go deeper with your friends. As an outsider who recently moved to this city, I have been observing and thinking about these observations especially since many individuals have lived in this town or state for their whole life. If no one has ever mentioned that Minnesota Nice is more of a negative trait than a positive trait, I hope to shed light on this topic.
It is time for all of us to finally admit that Minnesota Nice is doing more harm than good. Let’s admit it: Minnesota Nice is making race conversations more difficult. So what are we going to do about it? Instead of immediately opting in for Minnesota Nice, let’s choose connectedness over politeness, deepness over shallowness and uncomfortability over comfort.
If we don’t, unfortunately, nothing will change and these race conversations will continually be difficult in the “liberal” city of Minneapolis.
Ayomide Ojebuoboh is a first-year medical school student in University of Minnesota’s MD/PhD in Epidemiology Program.
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“… last year was the first time she felt comfortable talking to her white colleagues or neighbors about race.” Race should always be an uncomfortable topic.
Why?
Define race. Define Black. White. Who gets to decide? You? Me? The state? Do you perceive me as Black? White? Mixed-Race? On what basis are you making these distinctions? Getting uncomfortable?
No, I’m not getting uncomfortable, but thanks for asking.
As a biological matter, race is a pretty meaningless construct. As a social/cultural matter, it has great importance. It is driven partly by self-identification, partly by upbringing, partly by custom.
“Do you perceive me as Black? White? Mixed-Race?”
Since I can’t see you or interact with you personally, I can’t give a good answer to that question.
They should be uncomfortable because issues surrounding race are a matter of life and death.
When issues of race are no longer uncomfortable, they will no longer be a matter of life and death, and will probably be irrelevant conversations anyway. So…until race isn’t an issue at all, conversations should require some level of discomfort because they need to address issues that require us to reassess how much we have actually “earned” and how much value any of us actually have in society. That’s pretty uncomfortable no matter what way you look at it–probably even more uncomfortable than conversations about death. Death is inevitable, but your epitaph can be fudged if you don’t bother to do any soul searching in life.
Uncomfortable issues tend not to get discussed in a meaningful way. As much as we may, in the abstract, realize that the “uncomfortable” issues need discussion, it is human nature to avoid discomfort whenever possible. Yes, racial issues are a matter of life and death. If we expect that to change without discussion we are deluding ourselves.
Not for nothing, but it seems to me that the people most uncomfortable with discussing race are the ones who have the least to fear from racism.
” I challenge you to look around at your friend group and ask these two questions.”
Why should I accept your challenge? What is your case for my accepting your challenge? Given that you have two or three minutes of my attention as a fairthful MinnPost reader, is this what you think this is the most import thing I should be thinking about on this fine Monday morning?
I do a lot of political advocacy, and I always start from a base line, which can be summed up by the proposition “nobody owes me nuthin'”. It’s my job to explain to other people why my issues should matter to them. And let’s just say, like many medical students who got there undergrad degrees somewhere in Boston, I am almost always asking for things from people whose lives have not been nearly as lucky as my life has been .
You’ve just made yourself Exhibit A for the point she’s making.
“It’s a nice day and I don’t think race is important enough for me to talk about” is just hoping the issue doesn’t surface in a way to inconvenience you.
Give yourself a big ol’ QED.
And many others (lots on this board) are Exhibit AAAAA of why people don’t have such conversations. Either agree with the woke crowd or be jeered and scoffed at.
“It’s a nice day and I don’t think race is important enough for me to talk about” is just hoping the issue doesn’t surface in a way to inconvenience you.
Race has surfaced in ways that inconvenience me. But the ways in which that has happened have not worked as effective forms of advocacy. Neither have unanchored ruminations about “Minnesota Nice” whatever that might be, which do neither harm no good, nor really anything much at all.
“But the ways in which that has happened have not worked as effective forms of advocacy.”
“Effective” to whom?
To be connected to people, you have to be in a situation where you interact with them on a daily basis. For many people, that limits their connections to people of the same race.
Many of the liberal policies we have enacted over the years actually have unintended consequences that increase racial isolation. I live in one of the most statistically integrated neighborhoods in St Paul. In the 30+ years I have lived here, I have never met any of the people living in the Section 8 housing across the street from my house.
In a normal neighborhood, neighbors would get to know each other thru their kids. However, with school busing, none of the kids in the Section 8 apartments went to the neighborhood schools that all of our kids went to. They were all scattered all over the city to provide racial balance in other schools. Net result, none of those kids played with any of the other neighbor kids, and the parents never met.
It’s an interesting paradox that Minnesota, which prides itself in liberal enlightenment, has the biggest minority achievement and home ownership gaps in the entire country.
Its been decades since there was significant desegregation-based busing in St. Paul. The kids who are going elsewhere are busing by choice. You are watching too much Fox News and don’t understand what is happening in your own neighborhood, which may be the real reason you don’t know anyone.
Regardless of why students are being bused, it’s still happening. The fact that it’s voluntary doesn’t lessen the fact that the practice has nonetheless eroded one of the foundations of most communities (i.e. the school that most kids will go to).
You don’t have to be a Fox News fan to recognize that aversive racism drives a lot of the decision making at both an individual and a group level. Sure, people, talk a good game about race, but when it comes to putting those ideas into practice, well, there are reasons (“I’m not racist, but . . .”).
My main point was to counter the false narrative that liberal policies are doing this. That the government is making kids take the bus to far away schools. The commenter was saying they didn’t know the neighbors, but his understanding of why is based on falsehoods from right-wing news.
I sent my kids to neighborhood public schools in St. Paul, each of which had a majority of non-white students.
It doesn’t matter that it isn’t liberal policies; in fact, I think it may even be worse that so-called progressives are behaving in a way that shows thinly-veiled racism. It’s one thing to get rid of the “Whites Only” signs. It’s another thing to see people with “All Are Welcome Here” signs in their front yards come up with tortured excuses for sending their kids to nearly all-white schools (“Race had nothing to to with why we’re sending Brooklyn to the 99% white Special Snowflake Charter School.”)
You are missing the point. Or maybe you don’t have any idea what is going on in the schools.
These are black kids who are (voluntarily) busing away from their neighborhood schools. The kids going to the charter schools are BIPOC. This isn’t white flight. This is black choice. You seem to be relying on a different outdated narrative about what is going on in public schools.
Again, I sent my went to the nearest public schools. Just like all the other white liberals I know.
I think you are missing my point. Schools are only a part of the issue that mirror society as a whole (good on you and your pals for sending your kids to public schools – we did, too).
I think you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of “aversive racism.”
Couldn’t agree more. Only I would call it “aversive low income-ism”.
Ms. Ojebuoboh (the future Dr. Ojebuoboh) will be welcome at Genevieve’s social mixer in SW Minneapolis. The food prep worker at her hospital will not, regardless of that person’s (perceived) race.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but I would note that Ms. Ojebuoboh would not be a stranger to Genevieve at the social mixer. The situation might be different if she saw Ms. Ojebuoboh as a stranger in the aisle at Fresh Thyme, or watching her children at the playground at Kenwood Park. Genevieve might not have the same reaction to a poor white person intruding on her turf (she certainly would not invite them into her home).
And you are missing my point, which is that you have no idea what you are talking about. Your argument is based on falsehoods. You have rejected actual facts for a narrative that does not exist anymore. But you are so caught up in your self-righteousness, that you don’t care about facts.
There are a few misperceptions here.
1. There are lots of things that go into “Minnesota Nice.” Not all of them are negative. You’re right, lots of Minnesotans don’t like conflict. It can make it difficult to have “hard” conversations–if you’re not already connected to them. You’ve assumed that Minnesota Nice = unconnected. It’s not. It’s what we do with strangers, but doesn’t mean we’re incapable of connecting. And, while it’s true that it’s a hard culture to understand well enough to GET connected, it’s still just a cultural difference. You don’t understand us, we don’t understand you. That’s no one’s fault, it’s just a challenge…for us AND you. It is a bit unfair to assume that any cultural aspect should go away because you don’t understand it.
2. Not everyone engages in Minnesota Nice. After all, like you, not everyone grew up here. Only about 63% of adults in Minnesota were born here, and that’s probably MUCH lower at the U of M Medical School. If you’re not connecting with the other 40% to get the conversation going, it’s probably not Minnesota Nice (see, #4, below).
3. Not everyone who engages in Minnesota Nice is afraid of conflict. But, you can’t just expect to walk up to a Minnesotan that you don’t know (and they don’t know you) and have a debate. I question whether you could even do that with a New Yorker and remain civil, let alone tackle racism in any productive way. Believe it or not, though, many Minnesotans are generally open to different experiences, even conflict, if you’re patient. Why do YOU have to be patient? See, points 1 and 4.
4. Minnesota is not unique to the rest of the country with respect to race and racism. Minnesota Nice is NOT the roadblock to difficult conversations about race and privilege; it’s just a cultural hurdle to making friends/connections here. Race and privilege haven’t been solved in ANY state. Lots of white people simply don’t see racism because it doesn’t happen to them. The idea that they might be responsible for racism without even knowing it is…well, unbelievable. It’s why so many of them get offended at the idea that they have “privilege.” Privilege is literally invisible for them, so you MUST mean something that’s not true (I know, I’m being generous for some folks, but assume positive intent, right?). For the rest of us, we WANT to be part of the solution, but we don’t know what the solution is. Nor does anyone else. So, we put up signs in our yards. It’s not virtue signaling, it’s an invitation to have a conversation. Because we think it might be rude to knock on the door of one of our non-white friends/neighbors and ask them. We definitely don’t want to be rude (yep, Minnesota Nice). And, in any case, we’ve been trying to figure all of this out and about the only thing we’ve been consistently told is: it’s not the job of non-white people to teach us about racism. So, we’re holed up with our reading material because we’ve been told it’s rude to ask (see, it’s not JUST Minnesota Nice). We’re trying. We really are.
5. Statistics indicate that the odds of being white in Minnesota are over 80%. It also means that over 80% of the people any given person meets in Minnesota are going to be white. A person who has 100 friends in Minnesota is statistically unlikely to have more than 20 friends who are not white. But, since the average American has only 16 real friends (see: https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/american-number-actual-friends-study-determines), that translates to, well, 3 people who are not white. So, a person in Minnesota having 2-3 friends that are not white is exactly as diverse as Minnesota actually is. Of course, that’s assuming that people of every color are evenly distributed throughout the existence of every person in the state (which is not the case). Your challenge is more than a little unfair, unless you advocate white Minnesotans specifically seeking out non-white people to diversify their friends pool. Personally, I’d be creeped out by anyone randomly selecting me to be their friend because they need to diversify their friends.
6. For what it’s worth, I’ve had some conversations with non-white friends and neighbors kind enough to put up with my naivete. It’s a burden to them and I feel every bit of the fool that I don’t really “get” some things. It also humbles me to find out that if I listen to the most prominent racial scholars and activists and read the most recommended articles and books, I’m still not getting the whole picture. And, even if I have conversations with my friends, my neighbors, and even you, I still won’t have the whole picture. Also, maybe someone could tell me (and other “helpful” white Minnesotans) when I’m being insensitive when I am doing things that I perceive are helpful. Is it Minnesota Nice to not tell someone they’re being unintentionally racist?
7. Given #6, I believe that the most important “conversation” we can all have is at the ballot box. And I’m willing to do whatever I can to ensure that everyone can come to the table for that conversation. Whether everyone shows up is up to them. Real change is only going to happen when we elect leaders willing to take risks to enact real change rather than to pander to their political futures.
This is a pretty good comment. One that reflects being here longer than two months.
How long does one have to live here before one is qualified to make comments on the state’s culture?
Does the race of the person making the observations not enter into their credibility?
Longer than two months. And race certainly does matter, but again there are a lot of big conclusions for someone here for two months.
I thought Ms. Kahler’s comment was a lot better than the story itself, and I think that is a result of some actual experience living in Minnesota.
In other words, the opinions of a white person on race in Minnesota (“It’s not that bad”) are to be given more weight than those of an African American person, solely because the white person has lived here longer.
There’s another QED for you, right there.
I once had an African American colleague who had lived in Miami and Los Angeles, and went to school in DC. He said that of all the places he had lived, Minnesota was the most racist “because no one thinks that they are.”
Again, I don’t know how someone can get the measure of a place in two months.
I have to wonder what the reactions here would be if Ms. Ojebuoboh’s article would have said “I’ve lived here for two months, and everything is ginger peachy.” Would her opinion be dismissed because she hasn’t lived here long enough?
I would say the same thing. To live here for two months and draw broad conclusions either way is the height of arrogance and ignorance.
Thank you for this thoughtful commentary on Ms. Ojebuoboh’s essay. You acknowledge just how complicated the whole situation is. I am white, and “white privilege” is a difficult thing for many white people to come to, both intellectually and emotionally. And as you say, it is not always close-mindedness that is involved. A person needs to become committed to understanding the depth of racism in our country (many are committed, and many are not). And any true commitment, like a good marriage, is an ongoing thing. But you especially need to get your own pride out of the process. It is nearly impossible to put yourself – truly put yourself – in the shoes of someone who does NOT have all of the privileges you have.
For me a major “aha” moment (there have been several) is when my black teen-aged son got his driver’s license. If he is pulled over by the police coming home from playing soccer with his friends, what/who will the cops see? Will they see a teen-ager who is kind to his sister, who works hard in school and is a determined Christian who regularly fasts in order to remain aware of those less fortunate than he is, who is a fine classical piano player, a young man who always offers to help? No, they won’t. They will see a young black male because that is what our society has created. And you know how our society regards young black males.
I am terrified for your son, Tom. I’m terrified for lots of other peoples’ sons. I don’t have kids myself, but it’s not something I really have to worry about for my nieces and nephew. That right there is the privilege I have and my nieces and nephew have, but that your son doesn’t. And worse, if something bad happened (Heaven forbid!) to either of my nieces or nephew, I probably wouldn’t have to defend some perfectly ordinary activity they were doing when it happened. And I’m sorry that you and your son have to live with a terror that is very real, yet should be completely unnecessary. Kudos to you, by the way, for raising a great kid.
Thank you for your excellent analysis. I live in a rural county of around 11,000 people. There are not many black people that live here. I have had few opportunities to get to know those who do. Our interactions have been been mainly by coincidence. All I can do in those situations is be welcoming and friendly. Maybe the future will present opportunities to actually become better acquainted.
Maybe conversations about race are difficult, because race presents difficult issues. We simply cannot spends all of our time in difficult and painful confrontations, or at least most of us don’t want to.
And then what? It just goes away?
“Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
My 10 year old son claims he “can’t spend all his time doing useless homework, he’ll never have time for anything else.” I still force him to do his homework, because it’s a necessary requirement of his education. Where in the world do you get off thinking racial engagement isn’t a necessary requirement of civic engagement, as a responsible member of society? Because “I don’t wanna”? I apologize for the relative harshness, but it’s becoming more clear to me every day, as my children grow older, just HOW many of the problems in civil dialogue I witness in this and other forums daily, resemble almost exactly the interactions I have with my rebellious children. It’s as if we are a society arrested around age 12.
Minnesota nice: I will push your car out of the snowbank, but not invite you over for hotdish.
Lol. To be fair, no one’s going to judge you on your car-pushing-outer skills. But Minnesotans are terrified that people might judge them on how they keep house, so hotdish in the house is reserved for people you can’t help but invite in because, well, they’re related to you. As an introvert originally from South Dakota, who is not a terribly good housekeeper, I can totally relate. Let’s hang out in the garden. I don’t have to clean that before anyone comes over.
So why does any action or inaction by anyone always have to be tied to racial issues?
Understanding people is one thing – but it is a two-way street.
If the idea that not being able to connect with people is tied to race and not what’s inside the character of people, we are forever going to continue to let constant division reign.
I agree that there is more to this issue than race. When I moved to Minneapolis many years ago I found people to be pleasant, but not engaging. I am white, educated, outgoing, working a professional job, from a liberal family, etc. In other words, I should have fit right in. But even after 5 years of living/working/interacting with people here, I still didn’t know anyone well enough to ask them to be a best man or groomsman at my wedding. In my opinion, that is just Minnesota culture where so many people still hang out with the people they grew up with, and in general, likely not much more than that. Many years later my friend from Boston pointed out to me that the people with the most friends and best social lives are the ones that connected with other people who didn’t grow up here.
Been chewing on this all day and not sure where you are going or what your point is. We also have gay, lesbian, Hmong, Latino, etc. neighbors. We have had some very in your face conversations with literally all of them, and the responses were in many instances very revealing. So I guess my point is, perhaps you aren’t conversing with the folks that live in the integrated neighbor hoods, or perhaps, you should talk to the folks that left these integrated neighborhoods, specifically because they didn’t want to continue to be nice folks to those that were tearing up the streets, creating havoc, boom car, fireworks until 2-3 in the morning, for months on end, litter etc. etc. etc.
There are always 2 sides to the story, and a good guess (based on first hand knowledge), is that many of the, we are out of here folks, were not of the persuasion you think they were! So who should we be talking to and about what?
Where in the world do you get off thinking racial engagement isn’t a necessary requirement of civic engagement, as a responsible member of society?
When I am engaged in advocacy, when I am asking someone for something, one question I ask myself is “Where do I get off telling someone engagement with my issue is a necessary requirement of civic engagement?” Where, in this process, did I think the right to speak is the right to be listened to? Why do I deserve more than the simple brush off, which may or may not come in the form of “Minnesota nice”?
Ms. Ojebuoboh believes we should tell blunt truths to each other. From the vantage point of “Boston” and first year medical school, she wants to share her life experience and her insights with the rest of us, for our mutual benefit. But are privileged people like her, and I confess, privileged people like me, willing to get as good as we give? Whare are we willing to bring to the table? How doe we respond to people while they might or might not be responsible members of society but who are often a lot more useful, and perhaps a lot better as people than we are?
I read it over and over, and still cannot, for the life of me, figure out what it is you are trying to say. Is it that you think that you haven’t anything to offer in discussion with someone whose life experience is miles different from your own? That’s easy, listen. Is it that you you can’t perceive the reaction to the discussion from people unlike yourself in a way that is recognizable to you in the form of everyday milquetoast interactions of polity and surface level small talk? That’s easy, listen. It’s as if you think racial discussion is nothing but some mosh pit where you battle with some perceived opposition, point by point, until one of you exhausts the other. It’s mostly listening. In context of the piece that could be your issue, MN nice is the carefully crafted art form of communicating without actually exchanging information. Nothing is said that is expected to be heard, as such, no listening is performed. It’s the perfect Kabuki theater representation of what social interaction is SUPPOSED to look like, without any of the messy social interaction.
Is it that you think that you haven’t anything to offer in discussion with someone whose life experience is miles different from your own? That’s easy, listen.
I am not sure that Ms. Ojebuoboh has that much to learn of value from my life experiences. Her column isn’t exactly about how much more she would like to know about them than she does. In the very unlikely she does, it would be up to her to listen, not to me.
That brings me to a quick point I often make to advocates. While we have a first amendment right to speak, no one has a first amendment obligation to listen to us. Say what you about “Minnesota Nice”, more often than not, it leaves the door open, if only for a moment to communication. That’s why if an advocate does have something to say, it’s so important to make that the first they say, because the opportunity offered by Minnesota Nice does close very quickly.
” Is it that you you can’t perceive the reaction to the discussion from people unlike yourself in a way that is recognizable to you in the form of everyday milquetoast interactions of polity and surface level small talk?”
No, it isn’t anything like that. I perceive reactions and arguments outside the confines of Minnesota Nice just fine. I think most of us do. Quite honestly, I perceive them within the confines of Minnesota Nice pretty well too.
“It’s as if you think racial discussion is nothing but some mosh pit where you battle with some perceived opposition, point by point, until one of you exhausts the other. It’s mostly listening.”
That’s a colorful characterization, of course, but of course, conversations about race can be difficult, and Minnesota Nice is a strategy for avoiding difficulty. So are discussions, as described in this sentence, in which one side mostly listens. That is in fact, in our discouse what mostly happens.
Poor understanding of racial issues may be the biggest casualty of Minnesota Nice, yet it also goes far beyond that. MN Nice creates a sense of connection – but only at a superficial level. It seems to lead to a lack of deep relationships. Even among long-time friends, there can be a reluctance to find out what are the most important things to the other person, and what values each person holds dear. That misses the potential for a much fuller and more meaningful connection.
MN Nice actually has an evil twin: Minnesota Nasty. That’s the practice of being polite to a person you don’t like to to their face, and then tear them apart talking to others behind their back. This is the accepted “rule of the game.”
I’m white, and a transplant from the Boston area. The East Coast “in your face” attitude is perhaps the opposite of MN Nice. It can create discomfort and tension. On the other hand, at least people know where each other really stands. In talking to other East Coast transplants to Minnesota, I learned that they have found the same thing here that I have: Congeniality and pleasantness on the surface in most cases. but also a low amount of authentic relationships, and no obvious desire to create them..
That lack of deep relationship keeps all of us from realizing how close our values and self interests are to each other – instead of making assumptions about the “other” and keeping separate and even polarized. It keeps us from working together to jointly create the power to actually solve our problems.
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You know Buddy, had a fair amount of folks from the Boston area, starting back in 1969 Boot camp, yeah some of the attitude is a little harsh, but overall, we all got along OK, they may have been a little in your face, on certain topics etc. but they typically didn’t take it personal and contaminate the relationship. Some folks really don’t get that, hey its OK to spout your juice on something, (but the Boston viewpoint appears to be, you better be able to back it up) but don’t take it over the edge, if you are full of BS I’ll call you out, but hey, part of being Bostonian, don’t take it personal!
If Minnesota Nice and Minnesota Nasty are the culprits for divisiveness here, I wonder what the culprits are elsewhere. Things aren’t hunky dory in Boston or North Carolina. Minnesota Nasty is the equivalent of “bless your heart” elsewhere. Minnesota doesn’t account for huge part of the population, so MN Nice/Nasty can’t possibly account for this: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/13/america-is-exceptional-in-the-nature-of-its-political-divide/
As far as the idea that people here don’t form deep relationships, I’m not buying it. What do you consider authentic? Do you dispute that friendships made between people here are real? Minnesotans get accused of being rigid, and they can be, but they’re generally adaptable. Still, you’re expecting “authentic” to look exactly like it looked in Boston, which has a different culture. You will find different cultures everywhere in the world, and relationships in each of those cultures will look different, but that doesn’t mean they’re not authentic. Authenticity depends on each person/culture/situation.
I’m not disputing that it is hard to adapt to Minnesota culture. But Minnesota culture is not the cause of any particular division–racial, political, or otherwise–that every other part of the nation also has. I’m happy to be your friend, as well as Ms. Ojebuoboh’s. Well, assuming we generally get along. Not everyone is actually destined to be friends. But even if we’re not, I’m happy to have an in-depth conversation about race and politics. By the time we’re done, we’ll all have a better understanding of one another, and even maybe have a better understanding of why we might have different perspectives. We’ll have greater respect for each other. And if you want to dispense with polite–NO PROBLEM–my filter is leaky, so I can offend even the most obnoxiously direct person. But I don’t think that will do any of us any good. None of us will be able to make life decisions for the other, but that’s not what friendships look like here (at least not without years of investment). I do have an admission, though. I’m not a native Minnesotan. I’m from South Dakota. But I’m pretty sure you’d find the culture there even more oppressive. I’m also pretty sure that I’m not THAT different from most Minnesotans (generally–after all, we’re all individuals). Let’s have a conversation.
“Let’s have a conversation.” Maybe let’s not. Not everyone feels “racism is everywhere” (Ms. Ojebuoboh’s quote).
Not talking about race isn’t Minnesota Nice. It’s Human Being Nice. I live and work in a diverse, lower income community. I can tell you the last thing my friends and neighbors want to talk about is race. It doesn’t come up, and they would be very offended if it did come up.
You’re not required to have a conversation. No one is. But to the extent that there needs to be a conversation, avoidance isn’t the answer, either.
Why not? What are you avoiding? A critical issue that needs discussion? Or a grossly distorted, cynical weapon used to bludgeon the opposition and solidify power for hypocritical elites?
Hmm, wasn’t aware mind reading was among your skills. As you’re “not talking about race” don’t you think it rather presumptuous of you to determine your fellows reaction without you know, asking THEM?
I know what I’m talking about. If you think working people want to discuss race it’s proof how socially insulated you are. Race is a concern of guilty, comfortable people, and a handful of power-grabbing, cash-mongering insiders.
Ask them? I live work and work with them. Why don’t you ask them. You know why you won’t? Because you know, after all your liberal posturing, that it’s wrong,
Umm, last I checked I AM a working person, but sure. You seem to be guilty, rather often, of conflating YOUR worldview with that of large numbers of unrelated persons. It’s a bad habit.
I’m being honest. If you’re finding people anxious to discuss race, this is just not my experience.
Having been born in and lived in MN for 1/2 of my life. I have also lived outside of MN for 1/2 my life. To think we are somewhat unique by how we act and treat people is an illusion. Of course people put in a nice face. Why do I need to be close friends and have an engaging conversation with everybody I encounter? With racism the cause of every ill in society how are we ever going to see beyond it?
Because you’re boring otherwise.
Sorry for the snark. But in reality it’s because of the disingenuity. You’re more than willing to engage in such debate here, behind the safety of a screen, with utter strangers. It’s the inability to have normal human interaction with real live human beings that is at the core of Minnesota Nice.
Our culture is Scandinavian standoffishness.
You are not.allowed to criticize another’s culture
Minnesota is not primarily Scandinavian anymore. Lutefisk jokes aren’t generating the boffs that they used to.
I have relatives from Scandinavia. Believe me, they are plenty judgmental about other cultures (especially American).
Well, you can criticize it. Just don’t expect it to change. The idea that the culture of any given place should change to accommodate a newcomer is very American, and why we get a really bad reputation when we tour the rest of the world. Some Americans are worse than others at being bad tourists, but we by and large EARN that reputation, even if we’re not abroad. https://www.ricksteves.com/press-room/ugly-american-sentiment-abroad
I’ve had this conversation about MN “nice” many times with different people over the decades, and it’s always a little weird. I’ll just offer a bunch of observations I’ve made over the years, forgive me if it doesn’t jell into a nice comment like the one Ms. Kahler has written.
My wife grew up in Argentina and Panama (after being born in the US). She came back to the US to attend college on the East Coast and ended up moving to MN to finish up at the U. She says this MN “nice” thing is a “real” thing, and she’s described much the same way Ms. Ojebuoboh describes it. I cannot see it, but I trust my wife so if she’s says it’s real, I believe it.
Having said that I’ve never been able to shake the skepticism that Ms. Kahler expresses. Are you telling us there’s a place in the world were people are unfriendly but welcoming? Is there a place in the world where everyone is talking about racism all the time on the street and at work? Is there a place in the world where people help perfect strangers get their cars out of snow banks and then invite them over for lobster bisque or hot dish?
If you’ve been to Mississippi or Alabama, or even Tennessee you experienced Southern “hospitality”… i.e. perfect strangers are “Sir”, and “dear”, and “honey”, but you can’t tell me they got no racism, or that they’re having the big conversations we’re missing out on. So again, I have to agree with Kahler’s observation that no one else has this worked out, and it’s difficult to blame our racism on MN “nice”.
A few years ago I had my nephew out on a bike ride around Bde Maka Ska (Calhoun at the time) and a Hmong family capsized their rental canoe out on the lake. Myself and a perfect stranger (fellow cyclist) standing next me commandeered a canoe and went out and saved a couple Hmong kids from drowning. I didn’t get my fellow rescuers phone number, nor did I invite any of the Hmong family over for dinner or coffee afterwards. We just shook hands and moved on. Was that wrong? Would you rather live in a place where no one stops to help?
Part of my problem is that my first real career was working in psych. I spent years working with people who are alienated from society and culture in serious ways. In THAT scenario what you’re typically doing is trying to help people connect to those around them, it’s a client centered rather than a culture centered scenario. So when my wife or Ms. Ojebuoboh talk about MN “nice” my first instinct is to ask what THEY’VE done to connect, rather than explore reverse connection failures or problem. Clearly this MY problem, I have to suppress my inclination here because neither my wife or Ms. Ojebuoboh are schizophrenics or people with personality disorders, they’re my wife and a Med student.
I would also point out (at the risk of being patriarchal) to Ms. Ojebuoboh that I’ve known my share of med students, and as a general rule med school isn’t a great socializing experience. You are too busy and have too little time to do much else. Med school is intense, and time consuming, and demanding, and it gets more so as you get further into it. That doesn’t negate your observation here, but your relative social isolation may not be entirely a product of MN “nice”. Look around at your fellow med students… THEY will likely be your primary social circle for the next 4-6 years.
Another thing that makes it difficult for me to see MN “nice” is the fact that I’ve run into MN “nice” all over the world. From Amsterdam to Paris, and Panama and South, East, and West I’ve always run into perfect strangers that are friendly and helpful. I’ve gotten restaurant recommendations from strangers in sandwich shops in Boston. Once my wife and I were completely befuddled by the ticket machine in the Paris Metro and young woman stepped up with no hint of annoyance or impatience and helped us buy our tickets while a line of Parisians piled up behind us, they just smiled at us as if they’d seen clueless Americans before… go figure. Look, I NEVER fit in, no one ever mistakes me for a local… but people are friendly and I’m not complaining about that. Bear in mind I’m not comparing MY experience to that of being a black person, a white guy tying to get a Metro ticket in Paris is obviously not an encounter with racism.
If I had to pin MN “nice” on one cluster of origins I think I’d go with our lack of diversity, and predominance of segregation. When we discuss the lack of diversity we have to include a relative lack of transplants historically into the MN and the Twin Cities. For instance I talk to a lot of my wife’s students who end up at the CDC in Atlanta and they describe their experience in Atlanta as being free of MN “nice”. But Atlanta, New York, etc. etc. historically have much larger populations of transplants, and they cluster with each other. So I when they talk about how much more “welcoming” it is there, I wonder who’s welcoming… are locals welcoming the newcomers, or are the newcomers welcoming each other?
In any event, connecting segregation back to Ms. Ojebuoboh’s comments, I grew up here in St. Louis Park. My High School class graduated in 1981, and our of a few hundred classmates, there were 4 or 6 people of color. Two Black Americans, and they were brother and Sister. Likewise currently on my block, there are two out of families of color living here, and I’ve never had them over for coffee or hot dish. But you know what… I haven’t had anyone other my two next door neighbors over for coffee or dinner in the last 25 years. I can tell you with absolute confidence that racism is not an issue in my life in THAT regard. My answer to both of Ms. Ojebuoboh’s questions is: “no”, but it’s not because I don’t talk to POC that I know, it’s because I don’t know very many POC at all.
Once last comment, I have to say that Ms. Ojebuoboh may be a little presumptuous herself if she’s assuming that every other person color wants to have these conversations all over the place. My wife and I host a holiday party every year (when there’s no COVID) for people she works with, and there’s a large number of graduate students that attend that party. On occasion one or two of the students or they spouses (people they’re dating) are black. I always make a point of conversing with the students and whoever because they’re interesting and often surrounded by people they don’t know very well at these parties. Two conversations I remember having with black men focused on professions (one is a corporate chef originally from Texas) and the other was fellow bicycle enthusiast who has actually raced. So… are you telling me that here at my holiday party these guys want to set the conversations we had aside and talk about race relations? Don’t conversations about racism have more or less appropriate venues and scenarios?
And understand, you can talk to me about the racism you encounter if you want to, and I’m always (well almost always) willing to explore and renounce privilege and entitlement… but I can also just be your friend right?
I’m all for having uncomfortable conversations when necessary, and I’m less averse to that than most people. But there are more or less appropriate scenarios for such conversations, so is the problem a reluctance to have these conversations, or a absence of opportunities to have these conversations? Probably both eh?
So I know this doesn’t ad up to a big wise insight of any kind, but it’s a complex issue isn’t it? So anyways Ms. Ojebuoboh, if you want to talk to me, you have my name and I’m easy to find, I’ll talk, or perhaps more importantly… I’ll listen.
I think the best way to describe the MN nice phenomena is as small town cliqueishness applied to a much larger area. Also, it’s more Midwestern Nice, than it is a strictly Mn vice. I recognize the same behaviors I saw growing up in rural WI as what goes into Mn Nice, superficial polity, dutiful obligation to helping others, vs, actively seeking out such opportunity, and an active aversion to seeking out relationship that requires any real effort. Your example of only having immediate neighbors over for dinner is a perfect illustration. It’s really quite hilarious in its specificity at times. My wife, who quite literally grew up not more than 10 miles from where we now live, will actively seek to interact with those from that area, who she’s known for similar periods of time, vs our present acquaintances. Those acquaintances, who come from similar circumstances, do the same. Those of us, from without, do the opposite, and find ourselves interacting with each other only. This, after nearly 2 decades living in the community. I really can’t, as someone who over the years has spent time in a great number of places, and around a great many different sorts of people, understand the impulse. It seems so stifling and cloistered.
I get your point, Matt. I grew up in South Dakota. Not so different there as here in lots of ways. But I’m curious, what explains Paul’s lack of reaching out? Are you assuming his wife, who didn’t grow up here and who can spot MN Nice a mile away, doesn’t play a part in their social life with their neighbors? Surely, their supposed lack of social expansiveness CAN’T be solely because of Paul’s Niceness. I think we’re not so different from pretty much everywhere in the US. Or in the world, in a lot of ways. We only have a limited time on the planet. If we’re going to build those deep relationships that critics of MN Nice claim we don’t have, how does seeking out random connections with other people help that? We don’t even have the capability, as human beings, of building deep relationships with a lot of people. Yes, MN Nice (or Upper Middle USA Nice–it turns out we’re not in what most people consider the “Midwest”) is a real thing. But I think that it’s not what a lot of outsiders think it is. I’m not even sure we “Nice” people truly understand it. But I do know that it’s not a lack of intimate relationships and a refusal to engage in hard conversations at all costs. People are humans here just like everywhere else in the world. Humans have human relationships everywhere in the world. What those relationships look like depends on where you are, but there is nowhere in the world where all relationships are superficial, passive aggressive niceties. To view MN Nice that way is lazy.
I’ve been looking at Ms. Wicklow’s comments and wonder if there’s a way to interpret them more constructively? One way of looking at comfort levels or discomfort levels is to recognize that certain ideas, conversations, and scenarios are inherently uncomfortable for most people. Walking into room with a violent schizophrenic is never a “comfortable” thing to do, but someone has to do it right?
One way of looking at conversations about racism is that they are inherently uncomfortable because they require some recognition of aspects of ourselves (our society, culture, government, ancestors, and history, etc.) that we aren’t proud of. Put another way, and I think this gets to what Ms. Wicklow has been saying- if you’re having this conversation and you’re NOT uncomfortable… you’re not really having this conversation. If you keep this discussion within the bounds of your comfort levels, you’re not really having the conversation. If you don’t want to go there, you’re refusing to have the conversation or you’re just pretending to have the conversation.
I am pretty sure how we discuss issues, while problematic, isn’t the problem. They go much deeper, which is why we develop strategies for avoiding those discussions. In one of the comments in response to mine, I was referred to as an “exhibit”. Now I don’t take that personally, I am fairere game, fairer than most, but do you see the problem here? The dehumanization of it? Instead of being regarded as a person, someone the author of that comment sought to persuade, I was held up as a sort of object lesson to be held up to some choir that was being preached.
Niceness, Minnesotat wise or not, presents its challenges, but whatever form it takes, I am pretty sure it is not at the heart of our problems.
If one cannot hold up examples of what NOT to do, to others perhaps not in the “choir”, in a forum for debate such as this, where exactly should such lessons be imparted? If dehumanization occurs, I would argue it’s the venue, cold words on a screen, that finds itself in use because such conversations and lessons AREN’T being had and taught in more humanizing, face to face situations. This is basically the point the author of the piece is trying to make, no?
If one cannot hold up examples of what NOT to do, to others perhaps not in the “choir”, in a forum for debate such as this, where exactly should such lessons be imparted?
I think the rules of “nice” apply a lot less in social media than they do elsewhere, and of course that results in criticism from those from the opposite perspective. Insteaed of being mean to each other, we are told, would should be nicer. Another of what I think of as a rock-hard place issue.
“If dehumanization occurs, I would argue it’s the venue,”
Dehuminization occurs in lots of venues. It will be an issue the author of the piece to which this is a comment will face in one or another throughout her medical career.
The idea that discussion of race and politics are to be avoided is a lot older than social media, and even computers, and possibly even older than Garrison Keillor. As someone who lives let’s just say at an ideologically intense level myself, I am aware through a lot of experience, how difficult that can be others, and how important it is to tone it down. As much as I recommend it, humility rarely comes easily, not even to me.