I can’t seem to find the origin of a snarky quote that I recall went roughly, in reaction to a speech in Parliament I think: “What was new wasn’t interesting and what was interesting wasn’t new.”
That was (also roughly) my reaction to the remarks of both President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris this morning on the anniversary of the despicable uprising of January 6, 2021. That uprising was meant to prevent the congressional certification of the results of the 2020 presidential election in which Biden and Harris soundly defeated Donald Trump and Mike Pence.
Everything Biden and Harris said this morning was in the category of true-but-not-new. In the November 2020 election, their ticket defeated the ticket for former President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence. To his utter and permanent disgrace, even in comparison to the many previous disgraces he had committed as president, Donald Trump deviated from the solid precedent established by all previous presidential election losers and refused to acknowledge his defeat or abide by its result. Instead, he inspired a rabid mob of democracy deniers to attack the capitol building while the Congress was in the (normally routine) process of certifying the results.
A significant number of Trump supporters continue to reject this result, although their various efforts to demonstrate that Democrats stole the election by various imaginary shenanigans have all been rejected by the reality-based community.
It’s fine that the duly elected president and vice president chose to mark the anniversary of the riot.
It’s stupid to dwell, as I did above, on the fact that their remarks lacked newness or eloquence.
It’s frightening that poll still show a majority of Republicans agreeing (or claiming to believe, I’m not sure which) that Biden’s solid-but-not-quite-landslide victory (aka Trump’s solid-but-not-quite-landslide defeat) was the result of Democratic skullduggery, when it was the Trump Republicans who did the vast majority of the skullduggering, although without achieving the result of stealing the election.
It’s sad that efforts to rig future elections in favor of the Trumpublican Party continue in Congress and in the states, and sadder still that we can have less than full confidence that those efforts will be unavailing.
What a freak show that was.
I’ve often thought that the aftermath of the presidential election of 1800 – in which the incumbent President lost and then stepped down without a second thought – was one of the most important events in American history. It set a precedent of respect for the electoral process and the rule of law that overrode any hard feelings or personal ambition (Interestingly enough, Jefferson’s electoral College majority in 1800 was roughly the same as Biden’s in 2020). If a candidate lost, they lost and that was the end of it for that year. There were no assassinations or secret palace intrigues. The loser left and the winner assumed office, because the loser, whoever they were, was not entitled to be in office.
So much for precedent. Trump and his followers are acting on the belief that he and only he is entitled to be President. It does not seem to have occurred to them that the electorate really did reject him and that their rejection was manifested in a legitimate election. The norms of the peaceful transition of power have been tossed out the window.
This is not going to go away. Trump’s loyalists are already planning violent resistance for 2024 if he should decide to run. They have learned nothing.
Adams did step aside which set a very important precedent. The election of 1800 was also important because Hamilton saved democracy by convincing the Federalists to support Jefferson over Burr. The issue was fixed by a constitutional amendment and Jefferson rightly took office but definitely a very close call for the republic.
“This is not going to go away.” I disagree. Like the Russia scandal, the Comey scandal, the Ukraine scandal, the whole thing will dry up and blow away by the mid-terms.
Why? Because none of it’s true. The riot was in no way organized. Trump was in no way responsible. Republicans in no way endorse what happened.
Wow, just wow.
I think we can see the reason why it was impossible to find “conservatives” to sit on the Committee investigating the Insurrection. This is total denial of objective reality.
Yes, the committee. We’ll find out if I’m right, or if you’re right. That’s the beauty of our system. Just pledge you’ll respect their results, as I will.
Why do I get the feeling we’ll be treated to dry dictionary definitions of “organized”, “responsible” and “endorse” in future discussions of the Insurrection?
The Repub party has already become the Party of Jan 6, simply by its thoroughgoing ignoring of the event, not to mention its systemic rhetorical efforts to downplay it, and by its refusal to hold anyone accountable for it, as though it was an act of spontaneous combustion after thousands of Trumpites descended on DC to “Stop the Steal” on the day of electoral count certification.
(Leaving aside, as always, the Repub party’s continuing craven allegiance to the man who orchestrated both the attempt to reject the incontestable results of the election and the “march to the Capitol” with the “need to fight”, while then watching the televised proceedings for over three hours while doing nothing to stop it while ignoring appeals for help. But not “responsible” for Jan 6, I’m sure. Consult Merriam-Webster!)
Either you accept the committee’s findings, and the resulting indictments or non-indictments, or you don’t. The rest is just opinion.
Will you????? Will any of you????? Truly?????
Yes. If indictments are handed down and successfully prosecuted, we must all accept this result.
Just because you close your eyes doesn’t mean its nighttime.
And you can in no way see outside of your bubble,
You’re wrong. I’m non-partisan. Seeing both sides is what I do.
Well, lots of folks perceive they are looking at both sides, end of the day, probably not so much, left of alt-right is still significantly right, and vice a versa, not centerish moderate.
Well, yes. But making a non-partisan assessment means looking at both sides as accurately as possible. It means being issue-based. It means not accepting one side or the other, just because that side said it.
I read what you write.
Whadja think? : ) seriously, I welcome respectful, well-stated objections. None of us is perfect. Some are just more perfect than others : )
My mind is blown. Again. The Jan 6th coup was the worst thing this country has endured in a very long time. Treason is the absolutely worst thing any American can do to their country. The Jan 6th Committee has amassed 35,000 pieces of evidence, to-date, and growing….
The stats compiled are being publicly posted everywhere. They are seriously considering a very public on TV methodical presentation to ensure more Americans become fully aware of all the details.
Yet closed minded individuals remain completely blocked. This deep level of self deception and delusion must be in the DSM V. It really does align with the old parable about the Emperor who had no clothes. A story in which all the adults fell into line quickly & steadfastly. It took an innocent child to publicly proclaim that the Emperor indeed had no clothes (on) for the fog to lift and the adults to finally admit the reality. Where oh where is that child/voice now???? We so desperately need the propagandists & their blatant lies called out. Other adults calling out the reality is not working. The delusional are entrenched up to their eyeballs. Will it be their grandchildren or who freeing their locked minds and opening them once again to reality??? Or who??? What about this situation is so compelling that grown adults refuse to let go of its grip no matter what???
Your guy was silent for 187 minutes that afternoon. When he finally did say something this is the word salad that oozed out of his mouth.
“I know your pain, I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election and everyone knows it, especially the other side. But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s a very tough period of time. There’s never been a time like this where such a thing happened where they could take it away from all of us — from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.”
This is coming from the Commander in Chief remember. 187 minutes of watching the tv, reportedly on repeat for over 3 hours was the best he could do.
He’s not my guy. And I agree he was irresponsible, at the very least. But criminal? That’s for the courts to decide.
So the guy that brought the gallows, he did that on his own accord? Sure, that makes total sense.
They will prosecute the actual terrorists that were inside the capitol, but hopefully they will get the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys and the other seditionists behind the attack.
If they don’t prosecute any “seditionists” will you admit the Democrats were wrong?
Wrong about what?
What you’re saying. That the riot was organized by people who can be indicted.
If guilty pleas count as indictments, that ship has already sailed. Some have already pled; it seems the cases are being solidified for those further up the chain.
Will DOJ indict Stone, Bannon or Trump? Maybe not. But people who organized and participated are definitely in legal jeopardy.
Merrick Garland’s words this week strongly suggest the ringleaders will be dealt with. His Justice Dept , the FBI, Attns Gen & more are working systematically thru massive amounts of evidence that still accrues daily, and dealing with the lowliers first. But they are working as fast as they can while still being meticulous & thorough. They will reach the inciters in due course tho. And their sentences wb the most severe and lengthy.
The DOJ is following standard law enforcement procedure: work from the bottom up.
Start with the little fish; build on the evidence provided by those prosecutions to work your way up the chain.
The committee is looking into unknowns. We know all about the mob. We don’t know if Jan 6 comprises anything beyond the mob.
The COUP was organized by Trump, Flynn, Bannon and over 100 others in their thrall. They fed them false info, fired up the base, called them to DC to ‘fight’ and did nothing to stop it or end it once in play. They ALL can and must be indicted, jailed and given severe sentences. Or it will only happen again, likely with greater success. Not a single individual involved can be allowed to slip thru the system/processes, or hold public office, or vote…ever again. They are treasonous traitors. American grown & bred terrorists hellbent on destroying our democracy and replacing it with white nationalism/fascism. In Oct 2016 Trump & Bannon stood on stage, on camera, b4 a ‘debate’ w HRC and told the world their shared goal was to “obliterate the federal government”. That should have been the end of them right then. They remain a ‘clear & present danger’ to our country and to the world (their efforts have not just been in the USA). Anyone supportive of them is just as suspect.
Sedition. Insurrection. Treason. All attempts to overcome a government or authority. The sentence for which in the USA used to be: hanging. Let that sink in….
Regarding today’s speeches from the White House, I think Eric is spot-on – “true, but not new.” Both Harris and Biden have good speechwriters, and it appears they do pretty well at sticking to the script they’ve been given. Biden is notoriously gaffe-prone when going off-script, so sticking to the plan is a plus in his case. Harris is simply a good speaker – after a thousand or so, you learn how to do that sort of thing.
Trump is not going to live forever. He’s an old fat guy, whose notion of exercise likely consists of reaching for another order of McDonald’s fries while driving the golf cart from tee to green. I confess I’m curious (in the same way I’m curious about a large spider – shudder) about who will likely take his place as the faux führer for the no longer conservative, but admittedly neofascist, Republican Party.
Don Jr. seems to have a pretty solid following. And he’s gotten in a fair amount of practice at his Daddy’s brand of fact-challenged riling up of the crowds besotted with anything or anyone carrying the “Trump” moniker.
If Don Sr. dropped dead tomorrow, I’d still be worried.
Neither the “conservative” movement nor its wholly-owned party need the Trump family in order to find a white nationalist candidate for president.
They have decided that the Culture War needs to become total…
I think that the mini-Trumps (Don Jr, Eric and Ivanka) are shining in the reflected light of The Don. Without him, the Republican pros will take over.
Personality cults are funny things. Sometimes, they die out a few years after the figure of adoration is gone. Would invoking the name of Hubert Humphrey calm a fractious DFL caucus today the way it did in the early 80s?
The cults that survive are the ones that honor their hero in name only, and have little, if any, relation to how that person may have proceeded had they lived on. It’s still a crime in China to insult the memory of Chairman Mao even though it’s hard to believe he would have approved of the direction China is taking. In Argentina, the label “Peronist” was assumed by political factions all across the ideological spectrum.
Trumpism is so bereft of any ideology or intellectual content that it may survive him. The whole point of Trumpism is spite, resentment, and hatred. Mass Assemblies of Gullible Americans will keep invoking his name, until someone else comes along to “say what they’re thinking.”
The contents of the speeches may not be new, but a political campaign of a major party based on the idea of preserving and even expanding democracy vs. a party comprising a coalition of democracy skeptics and democracy opponents — now, that would be interesting AND new. That sad part is that in 2022 such a campaign would be a nail-biter. Or would it?
And yes, R.B., the peaceful transfer of power in 1797 and 1801 was a marvel greatly admired by non-royalists everywhere. Today’s Republicans are destroying the brand.
The whole thing was a sh*t show. I am not buying that democracy was in peril. I am not buying that democracy is in peril today. Why? Where? Who? If you look at the incredible failings of the Capital police that day, it makes you wonder, or at least shake your head. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/08/capitol-police-failure-456237
The Capitol police were never intended to repel an invasion — their main function was guiding tourists. That’s why the National Guard should have been called -immediately- .
Democracy is less in peril from armed insurrection than from organized shenanigans around skewing the vote. The riots from Jan 6th get the attention, but the real risk was the electoral vote count. GOP congresspeople were willing to challenge the vote totals submitted by various states. Some suggested that states should submit ‘alternate’ electors if the vote in their state was suspect. There is not a process for addressing such a situation.
Most of the people willing to subvert the 2020 election will still be in office in 2024. None of the Republicans who challenged that subversion are likely to be in office in 2024.
Given how various states have political leaders who are supporting the big lie, how can you be confident they’ll faithfully conduct future elections? THAT is the peril to democracy – not the terrorists that stormed the capitol.
The main problem with Trump’s Insurrection is that the nation did not act to correct the catastrophe. Yes, yes, now the Capitol police have a “plan”, etc. But the leaders of one of the nation’s two main political parties did not denounce either Trump’s refusal to acknowledge his obvious loss, nor did they denounce his open and obvious incitement of a rabid mob of reactionaries to block the installation of the democratically-legitimate president. (At least not after the first 24 hours after the insurrection).
Instead, the Repub party and its coaches (who are still clearly led by the white fascinalist Trumpolini) have assiduously worked to dismantle non-partisan election machinery in “swing” states such as GA and AZ, and install fascistic operatives into that machinery to “object” to future election results if the Repub candidate does not win. The idea of the white fascinalists is that a Dem candidate simply cannot legitimately win the presidential election, nor an election in a state that has heretofore voted Repub. So they are furthering the rot in our democratic system and sclerotic Constitution.
Should the country decide to give the Congress to this anti-democratic party in 2022, then it is very likely that pandemonium will ensue with the election of 2024, as a Repub House simply will not certify the election of a Dem president, no matter how badly the Repub candidate (very likely Trump) is defeated in the popular vote. Indeed, all the skullduggery that Eric B has been writing about lately is designed to make sure that the Repub candidate attains the Whit House via the electoral college; all these anti-democratic machinations are only possible because of that woeful constitutional contraption.
The inaction in the face of the Jan 6 Insurrection is the true scandal, and the true measure of our obvious failure as a nation. The rest of the world cannot fail to notice this absolute paralysis.
Here we are a year later, up is down, down is up, in is out, out is in, fact is fiction, fiction is fact. The R party is now equivalent to the Flat Earth Society, these folks have bought into ignorance is intelligence, intelligence is ignorance, and to unwind they have to admit, yes indeed they have been had, and had in a big way, and since they have been had, they are stuck with lacking the ability to admit they have been had, so keep diving into the alternate universe deeper, No this BS is not going away, its like a new religion, and these folks are into new religions. The quote that keeps coming to mind is “I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it.”– Edith Sitwell, poet and critic. Have run out of patience with these Flat Earth folks, long time ago.
“admit, yes indeed they have been had”. Okay. Tell you what. If the Jan 6 Committee finds no one to indict, will you admit you have “been had”?
When Trump, Flynn, Bannon, et al, are indicted and charged with conspiracy & more: will you stand down??
I know I’m going to regret doing this, but here goes:
The January 6 Committee has no power to indict anyone. They may recommend criminal prosecutions, but ultimately, it is up to the Attorney General to decide if charges should be brought. Congress has no power to prosecute crimes.
This is accurate.
We’ll see where things go, seems there is an inclination that I have something preordained/personally vested in the outcome and or establishment of that committee, i.e. a built in bias or expectation? Science and math etc. may theorize the conclusion, but lets see how the numbers etc. come out, and then lets see if folks plugged bogus BS in the equation to get the answer they want to come out. Seems a lot of R-wingers consider the 1/6/21 insurrection patriotic. Caught a great quote today: When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent. Isaac Asimov.
The ignorance of the Trumpites about how our government works is extraordinary! Audrey here doesn’t know that the Special House Committee on January 6, 2021 will not end with indictments of anybody. They seem to have a lot of people they have already referred, or will in the end refer to the Dept. of Justice for investigation and possible indictment. But their Congressional purpose is dual: to find out as much as possible about who planned and organized and incentivized the mob in the insurrection that attempted to prevent Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s 2020 electoral victory over Trump, and to devise legal measures that would prevent such a desecration from ever happening again.
The Trump camp doesn’t fear indictments. They fear that good laws will prevent their implementing their autocratic aims, and good courts will make sure those laws are followed. Trump ignores the law categorically. What we all have to do is kind of rub his face in our laws.
Had about what? Are you suggesting that 1/6/21 insurrection didn’t happen, or the big lie is actually not a lie?
“Insurrection” and “Big Lie” are just labels. “Capital Riot” and “Alleged Fraud” could just as easily suffice. Of course, using neutral terms makes it harder to lead people by the nose.
Regarding Jan 6, I’m saying we will find out. If no indictments result, I hope the Left will be satisfied. You’ve got a Democratic commission, and a Democratic AG just looking for payback for being denied a seat on the Supreme Court. What more could you want?
Audrey Wicklow and a couple of other Trumpites here agree with her claim that
“’This is not going to go away.’ I disagree. Like the Russia scandal, the Comey scandal, the Ukraine scandal, the whole thing will dry up and blow away by the mid-terms. Why? Because none of it’s true. The riot was in no way organized. Trump was in no way responsible. Republicans in no way endorse what happened.”
No, no, no! Not true, right, Audrey? I feel so sorry for people whose heads are so far into the sand. The work of the January 6 committee–plus some fine journalism of the past several months’ publication–is pointing to a frantic but coordinated organization of Trump’s sending the mob to do what he failed to get Republican Vice President Mike Pence to do: overthrow the legitimate election. As a last, desperate Trump camp attempt to re-install our Homeland Autocrat over the man the voters chose.
Overthrowing Biden’s election (by a majority of 7 million votes) was the purpose of Trump sending that January 6 mob to attack the Congress as it did its Constitutionally-required work. Trumps challenges to balloting had failed in every court in the land, where it was shown again and again that there was no Trump victory, no electoral fraud. He failed to intimidate a large number of Republican electoral officials in the states (Georgia; Pennsylvania; Arizona; Michigan; Wisconsin, etc.) to falsify their election results to overthrow Biden’s clear election. These democratic Republicans refused to throw out legal votes and invent Trump votes.
Trump had nothing left in his quiver except physical violence against members of the House and Senate. And he sat there in the dining room attached to the Oval Office and ate up the TV images, pausing and re-running what he slobbered over, enjoying the violence that a “Let’s you and him fight” type like Trump would enjoy.
Poor baby. He cannot accept a loss. But he was and is a loser. Dangerous, though, because so many people have let themselves be duped by him.
The January 6 committee is looking into the kind of criminal activity you are talking about. If they find none, will you accept it?
Conservative WaPost columnist Jennifer Rubin outlines how a case against Trump might be constructed.
“Conviction [of sedition] requires proof Trump intended the violent mob to achieve what his previous machinations (e.g., strong-arming the Georgia secretary of state, cajoling the Justice Department) did not. That is where Cheney seems to be going when she says Trump acted to “provoke a violent assault on the Capitol to stop the counting of electoral votes.””
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/03/jan-6-committee-trump-criminal-statute-sedition/
She includes pointed observations that the decision to indict is up to the DOJ, not the committe, which it seems some people are unclear about.
If the committee finds unlawful behavior, indictments will follow.
Not necessarily. The Mueller Report found criminal behavior (facts that provide for at least obstruction of justice), but there were no indictments. Mostly because of political limitations, not legal limitations. If there are no indictments it’s because there are no indictments, not because of a lack of evidence of indictable offenses.
Evidence is not guilt. If it were, then the election was stolen. Of course the election was not stolen, because the evidence was far too weak to prove anything. Same could be said for the Trump collusion charge, which has even weaker evidence, in my opinion.
You’re right. Evidence is not guilt. But while people SHOULD be charged/indicted if there’s sufficient evidence, every agency has the ability to CHOOSE not to charge/indict anyone. Indictment is not guilt, either (although you appear to believe it’s sufficient for your purposes). On the other hand LACK of indictment/charges does not prove innocence, either. Discretion plays a large part in whether anyone gets charged for a crime, not sufficiency of evidence. Just because an agency fails to do their legal duty doesn’t mean we should not be concerned about it. January 6th is one of the most shameful moments in our history, and it was the most blatant (though not the least) attack on our own Constitution in living memory. It happened. It WAS planned–you don’t show up with the items that many of the charged/convicted individuals brought with them if there wasn’t a plan. The question isn’t WHETHER it was planned, it’s is WHO was involved in the planning, and to what extent other individuals CONTRIBUTED (are accessory) to incitement and/or failed to use their powers to stop it. There might not be specific charges for being a malignant opportunist, but there is such a thing as a crime of opportunity. Just because Trump hasn’t (yet) actually succeeded with unconstitutionally usurping the rightful government, doesn’t mean he didn’t commit a number of crimes. If nothing else, I’m pretty certain he was not only aware of the plans for January 6 (even if he wasn’t directly involved in planning), but he intentionally used that knowledge to ensure it happened the way it did. He gave the orders to act, even if he didn’t plan the actions. The planners gave him the gun, and knowing full well what a gun does, he pulled the trigger.
“LACK of indictment/charges does not prove innocence” –Yes it does. We must respect our system.
Unfortunately, based on your numerous comments here, it’s clear you don’t understand the system, even when Ms Kahler takes pains to explain it to you.
“it’s clear you don’t understand the system” Really? In what way? Because I don’t fill my comments with breathless, partisan rhetoric?
I understand the most important part of “the system”, innocent until proven guilty. That’s one Ms. Kahler, and you seem to have missed.
No. It doesn’t. The presumption of innocence refers only to the actual application of the justice system and the baseline for the burden of proof required to convict–you know, in a court, /after/ being charged with a crime–not with respect to the discretion that any given agency has to charge someone in the first place. A lack of indictment only means that the State has declined to make an accusation. There are lots of reasons for this and none of them have to do with innocence. The presumption of innocence is a /legal/ standard baseline for convictions, which can only happen after accusation. The corollary is that an accusation (or indictment) does not prove guilt (which is a trap that you apparently fall into). The term “innocence” here is not the dictionary definition of innocence, which you appear to mistake it for. You’re not alone. Much of the US population is similarly ignorant of what the phrase actually means.
Correct. And now we’re back to… Opinion. Everyone’s got one. And opinion means exactly… Nothing.
This is accurate, and I didn’t mean to imply the committee has charging authority. This is up to the AG, Merrick Garland.
Regardless of the committee’s findings, they are almost sure to recommend Trump’s prosecution. This will put Garland under enormous pressure, as Democrats demand he act. There will be equal pressure not to act from Republicans, who will hammer home the idea the AG cannot be fair, having been bitterly denied a seat on the Supreme Court.
What will Garland do? Charge Trump, and face an extraordinary partisan firestorm? Recuse himself, and watch a subordinate refuse to indict? And people wonder why I follow politics. What a circus!
Not that I am a scholar of governmental operations, but, the House Committee does it’s investigations for purposes of understanding what happened, report its findings and decide if should have an impact on needed future legislation.
If it does find what it considers to be criminal behaviour, it does indict or act on it beyond a referral to the justice department where a separate decision is made on legal consequences.
Correct.
They’ve already found it! Reams and scads and trails and phone records and depositions of it! Hello….
If it isn’t criminal, then is no prosecution. This is still America.
Organizing an insurrection is, by definition, illegal. There is evidence that points to that actually happening. The question is who was in and who was out. Whether anyone gets charged and/or convicted is a completely separate question. However, if you think and indictment is enough to quiet the “doubters,” you’re in for a big surprise. I’m not even convinced you’d stick to a simple indictment yourself.
Trump adviser, Peter Navarro, in his recent book describes the “Green Bay Sweep”, their plan for January 6:
1. Multiple Senators & Representatives would object to the electoral votes certified by each state (See Cruz, T)
2. Pence would declare these votes invalid and return them to the states
3. Red States with R legislatures would invalidate their state’s certified results and prevent a winner from being called
4. It would then all end up in the SCOTUS where Trump would win
The funny/curious/crazy aspect of their master plan is that we did get to number 4 anyway, SCOTUS deciding, by the constitutionally guided means of court appeals and Trump lost and this all occurred before January 6. They were all simply too stupid, desperate and power crazed to realize they had lost and all hope was gone: even if the master plan was executed to its conclusion.
And if they were able to understand this at the the time of the SCOTUS rejection, they could have, as Sean Hannity told his insider friends, “land the plane” and get out of Dodge in one piece.
But no, Donald Trump, the least intelligent President and most ego involved President ever could not process this information, held his rally and sent the mob down the street simply because of his lack of intelligence and surplus of ego.
Finding Big Lie defenders in the MINNPOST commentariat is not easily done.
C’mon, fellas, 60% of R voters are with you: If you believe in the Big Lie it also means you believe the Constitution failed and rather than nibble around the edges with things like polling locations someone needs to suggest the Constitutional remedies to prevent this from happening again: If “Candidate A” believes they been denied their earned electoral victory here are the current remedies:
1. At the state elections level where things like recounts are managed: See Franken and Coleman.
2. Legal action when #1 fails to “find the truth”
3. Multiple levels of appealing those court decisions if they still don’t “find the truth”
4. The SCOTUS as the ultimate arbiter: See Bush V. Gore
How is this fixed to your satisfaction besides the way you all used to do it: poll taxes, estimating jelly beans in a jar, the voting status of your ancestors, property ownership, economic status and literacy tests.
Or just stomp your feet, bellow and b….. and storm the Capitol because you did not get your way.
Trump and his supporters did not want to Trump to be president. They wanted him to be an autocrat, a dictator, a President for Life. If anything, they now feel more like that today.
This comes from a fundamental attitude of conservative white male supremacy – the opinions of others don’t matter and they need to be kept in their place. If you truly believe that every American citizen without a recent felony conviction should face no barrier to vote and that the will of the people should be respected, voting Republican is no longer viable.
For very interesting thoughts on this, listen to this: https://www.mprnews.org/episode/2022/01/07/how-civil-wars-start
“When Barbara F. Walter started researching her book, “How Civil Wars Start, and How to Stop Them,” in 2018, many wondered if it was an “exercise in fear-mongering.” The idea that the U.S. could find itself mired in a second civil war seemed incredulous, even irresponsible. In 2021, it doesn’t feel as implausible.”
My apologies, Minnpost Moderators et al,
I said some harsh things in this thread and in the past. It is a very hard time for all of us, and it serves nothing for me to be here writing like that. I am resolved to take a long hiatus from commenting here, unless I have something positive to say. Anger is rising in America and I am resolved to be a peaceful and respectful energy in response. You have a lot of responsibility with your work and I wish you the best with it.
William Hunter Duncan
Of course, there is plan B:
Turn over a new leaf of positivity and post on into a new reality.
In the half empty equation we have the continuing legitimate complaints about ever growing wealth separation.
The half full equation has the top 9 richest Americans all entirely self made: no generational wealth passed down like landed British aristocracy.
Seems we are a tax policy away from a win win situation.
C’mon WHD, enter into the full sunshine of optimism…
The wealth gap is between working stiffs and well-paid, secure professionals. Not billionaires. Who cares about them anyway?
“Who cares about them anyway?”
Maybe the millions of people who work for them.
You don’t solve the wealth gap by pitting one end of the gap against the other.
You work with those creating it in the first place.
Are you talking about billionaires? Because again, why would anyone care about them? Who are they to me?
You say millions work for them? I don’t think so. Millions work for companies, not billionaires. These companies are owned by investors. Some of these investors are large, like billionaires, and some small, like you and me. If the billionaire disappeared, died, went bankrupt, someone else would buy his stock. We wouldn’t miss him. Not in the least.
So let’s work on improving conditions for people we do care about. Like people who actually produce something. This is someone we most certainly would miss.
As Adam Smith put it, many years ago, “[w]herever there is great property there is great inequality. For one very rich man there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many.”
Respectfully, that doesn’t sound like accurate economics. The handful of super rich don’t equate to the poor being poor. Again, you could do away with all the super rich, sell off their stock, and all of us would scarcely notice.
“the top 9 richest Americans all entirely self made: no generational wealth passed down like landed British aristocracy”
Is it odd that our system enables the accrual of such wealth so rapidly? If Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Musk, etc were each only worth, say, half as much; would that have been a demotivator for any of them?
The interesting thing is that I will bet that none of these guys in any way obsessed over gaining incredible wealth at the front end of their work.
Each had a good idea and were consumed with pursuing it. Not obsessing over taxes or legendary wealth: One good idea led to another and building and growing their enterprise was as much about seeing it succeed as getting crazy rich.
Now that they are there they may have a different set of priorities about the wonders of wealth and the evils of taxes…
Ms. Sullivan (as is usual) and Edward Blaise together make a very good case. Audrey Wicklow, sadly, is delusional. “Trump was in no way responsible. Republicans in no way endorse what happened” are sentences in total denial of reality. Many hours of videotape – of Trump’s speech, of Republican lawmakers and officials insisting it was a “group of tourists visiting the Capitol, of Minnesota Republicans refusing to acknowledge Biden’s win in both popular and electoral votes – plus transcripts and sworn testimony of Mr. Trump figuratively twisting the arm(s) of electoral officials to “find” additional votes for him all testify to the falsehood that Trump was in no way responsible. He directed the charge. If Republicans don’t endorse what happened, why has it not been roundly condemned by members of the party – specifically including Minnesota’s Congressional Republicans?
Trump lost the election, and by a wide margin. The Capitol was attacked, at the direction of Donald Trump. There are lies of omission just as there are lies of commission, and by its collective silence, the Republican Party, both nationally and in Minnesota, has endorsed both the Big Lie and the Capitol attack. It’s easy to find on the web instances of Republicans condemning the Capitol attack in the hours immediately afterward, and then reversing themselves in the weeks and months since then (Kevin McCarthy being a recent example). Ms. Wicklow would do well to read Hannah Arendt and others on the banality of evil.
That’s your opinion. And it’s a fine opinion. But only an opinion. Now the Jan 6 committee is at work. Then the possibility of criminal indictments. I don’t think this will happen, and that’s my opinion. Once the dust clears, I may not appear so “in total denial of reality” after all.
Indictments! Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!
The purpose of the January 6 Committee is not to do the groundwork for the Justice Department. As discussed, they can make referrals, but it is the DOJ’s job to investigate and prosecute any criminality as Merrick Garland discussed this week.
The purpose of the January 6 Committee is to gather and report factual information about the run-up to and events of January 6. Some commenters here are following the Trumpian playbook of no matter how unethical, sleazy, underhanded and despicable an action is, it is all OK if it can’t be charged as a crime. And even if it is charged and convicted it is a hoax and witch hunt.
Maybe setting the bar a little higher for the Executive Branch of the most powerful nation on the planet would be a nice goal to talk about. And that is what the Committee is talking about: what happened, what went right, what went wrong, throw a little sunshine on the whole thing and then move on. And sunshine is scattering the Trumpian cockroaches.
Maybe it is OK to learn, as Trump press secretary Grisham told us last week, Trump watched the insurrection with glee, cheering on his insurrectors as they trashed the Capitol, hitting rewind on his Tivo and replaying the parts that really tickled his fancy. All the while as he was ignoring pleas for help from those in the Capitol and pleas for action from his people.
Thanks for pointing out the game being played.
If behavior is not indicted as criminal, then it’s all just a matter of “opinion”. The criminal law is the only basis for objective thought and conclusions now. Got it.
“That’s just your opinion” is the long-standing last defense of the right-winger faced with incontrovertible facts.
Incontrovertible facts lead to incontrovertible legal decisions. When they don’t, maybe they weren’t so incontrovertible.
Considering the attempted coup and the events of January 6 as a discrete phenomenon is perilously compartmentalized. Targeting Trump’s culpability for January 6, and even just having the term”Trumpism” in one’s vocabulary, is perilously compartmentalized.
Trump’s election in 2016 had nothing to do with Trump. It had to do with the fact that there are in our nation some 70 million people who would vote for a candidate cosmically lacking character, virtue or saving grace, watch him demonstrate that daily for four years, and then vote for him again. The way the past six years are spoken of, it is as though these 70 million people were ordinary, thoughtful, civic-minded folks until Trump came down the escalator and uttered magic words that turned them spontaneously into fearful, credulous, cult followers.
Some 50-60 years ago, for reasons that would serve its economic clientele very well, the Republican party determined to cultivate its base from those susceptible to the authoritarian appeal. Since then, the party has delivered nothing to its base but immiseration and a never-ending series of tales of false threats and false enemies … the textbook recipe. “Trumpism” is not about Trump, it’s about the decades of authoritarian fabulism that created 70 million people who would vote for a Trump. And once the Republican party self-selected the frightened and readily manipulated for its base, it ensured that its leadership would self-select from our society’s grifters and power-hungry, those among us most excited at the opportunity to control others for their own gain. With these components in place, what has followed necessarily has been increasing immiseration, deflected by ever-heightened tales of heinousness by imagined enemies, all colored by the gradual decline of norms and desublimation of the nihilistic drive. This phenomenon, and the rising threat it has posed to our country, has been the most important news story for decades. But it is the one story that the media -with their prime directive of maintaining the illusion of two “sides” in democratic equilibrium – are not permitted to report.
So democracy did not “narrowly escape” its downfall on January 6. January 6 was just a particular visible moment of the continuing degradation of the democratic aspiration. The forces that produced it all continue forward. And since I’m already likely to be dismissed for my hysteria, I might as well close by intimating where, history tells us, worsening social and economic conditions, the shedding of laws and norms, heightened demonizing of named “enemies” by those in power, and increasing normalization of violence tend to lead.
Yes, even more unnerving than the January 6 attempt to overturn the election is the fact that so many Americans are just fine with it.
No one is fine with it. This is conspiracy theory-ish.
Insane statements comparing, even equating, Jan 6th with Pearl Harbor must be made. It’s the only way Dems can justify the power grab they have in store for us. Good stuff.
Weird. Your comment appears to be the first such reference on this page.
Well, cory, I don’t know who you are referring to, but let’s think about it for a minute.
What we saw on Jan 6, 2021 was a sitting president who (after all certified returns and court challenges were exhausted) lost his re-election bid by over 7 millions, yet continued to insist the election was “stolen” from him, intentionally gathered a mob of thousands of rabid, delusional reactionaries in DC on the day of the electoral vote count, told them they have to “fight like hell” to “save their country” and that he was going to “lead them to the Capitol”, fled to the WH and watched on his TV the Trumpite mob break into and halt the proceedings (“looking for” Dem leaders), ignoring all pleas for help for over 3 hours.
Now is that actually a greater danger to American democracy than the Japanese attack on Dec 7, 1941? Is a foreign enemy more dangerous than a committed domestic one seeking to subvert a national election? I would say that the comparison is quite plausible. The Japanese had to fight a unified country and went down to ignominious defeat, while what today’s “conservative” movement are pulling calls to mind Lincoln’s warning: “A house divided cannot stand”. (Of course, the North did go on to suppress that violent and treasonous insurrection as well. So there’s hope!)
And, of course, you would call it equally insane when Mike Pence says: “Just another day in January”. Or Rep. David Clyde, shown helping to pile up desks to barricade the doors into the House Chamber later said it reminded him of a normal tour day at the Capitol.
Insanity is refusing to investigate this in anyway: no independent commission, no cooperation with Congressional investigations. The Rs had their chance with an independent 911 like commision, but instead made the bet that if they just ignored it and repeatedly fought every aspect of any investigation, it would all go away. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Another right-wing voice equating efforts to win open and fair elections as a “power grab.”
The “power grab” thought makes sense only if you believe that conservative Republicans are the only ones allowed to govern. I have a news flash for you: that isn’t how things work in the United States. “Power” falls to the winners of elections, whatever party they may claim as their own. No one is entitled to be in office unless they can persuade at least a plurality of voters to elect them.
The never do describe what entails “the power grab they have in store for us.” Though I guess considering what the folks who believe that believe, they don’t have to describe it.
Long thread. I’ll be brief: I really enjoyed the new movie, “Don’t Look Up.”
We did too. If you haven’t seen it, Looking for a Friend for the End of the World is a good one too. Steve Carell and the always lovely Kira Knightly star. Similar premise, huge asteroid hurtling thru space on a collision course with earth – certain doom. I’ll stop there.