Well, that didn’t go as planned.
An annual rite of the Minnesota Legislature, a Forum News Service event featuring the governor and the four top leaders of the Legislature, became something else. What is usually a sometimes dry recitation of legislative agendas, predictions for the session and even pledges to work together quickly devolved into a heated debate over violence, hate speech and political rhetoric in the wake of the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.
By the time it was over, Gov. Tim Walz had left the teleconference after declaring his disappointment with GOP leaders for comparing Trump supporters’ violent speech and actions to threats by a now-state representative and riots that broke out after the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.
GOP leaders pushed back, though at one point the DFL leader of the House told the GOP leader of the House to “quit lying.” By the end of the hour-long virtual panel discussion, an already challenging 2021 session of the Minnesota Legislature had become more challenging.
The friction started immediately, with the first question to the Legislature’s two Republican leaders: Senate Majority Leader Paul Gazelka and House Minority Leader Kurt Daudt: Did they think there should be action taken against the half-dozen state House members who took part in a “Storm the Capitol” rally in St. Paul as mobs were breaking into the U.S. Capitol?
Gazelka said none of his members attended and defended peaceful protests, drawing the line at “rhetoric that threatens violence.”
“Frankly, I don’t care whether it’s a city council member or a president or a lieutenant governor or a governor or a legislator,” Gazelka said. “Anyone who isn’t condemning violence that we had throughout the summer, month after month, destruction of public properties, tearing down of statues, ruining (police) precincts or the federal Capitol, all of us should say is un-American, period.”
[image_credit]Screen shot[/image_credit][image_caption]Senate Majority Leader Paul Gazelka: “It concerns me on both sides when people take this to extremes.”[/image_caption]
“There was nothing here that happened that was violent as far as I know or even incited any violence,” Daudt said.
He said he has spoken out strongly against what happened in D.C. last week but he said people on the other side of issues need to be listened to.
Daudt said he thinks Joe Biden is the legitimate president-elect of the United States and doesn’t think there was significant voter fraud in Minnesota, but also said: “Why do they feel so passionate that they would want to gather together in protest?”
While both GOP leaders seemed to be comparing the St. Paul rally to protests and riots after Floyd’s killing — not the invasion of the U.S. Capitol — DFL leaders said they were hard to separate since both were attempts to call into question the legitimacy of an election.
House Speaker Melissa Hortman, DFL-Brooklyn Park, said the St. Paul rally speakers used violent rhetoric, speaking of the need for casualties, and threatened going to the homes of Walz, legislators and judges. She said the House will investigate the six members who attended the rally: Susan Akland, Steve Drazkowski, Mary Franson, Glenn Gruenhagen, Eric Lucero and Jeremy Munson.
“You absolutely have a right to free speech but that stops at incitement to domestic terrorism,” Hortman said.
While agreeing, Gazelka again referenced the protest at the Hugo home of Minneapolis police union leader Bob Kroll, during which John Thompson, then a candidate for the state House from St. Paul, threatened to burn Hugo, saying “Blue Lives ain’t shit,” and appears to yell at young white girls watching from an open garage, calling them “racist motherfuckers.”
“It concerns me on both sides when people take this to extremes,” Gazelka said.
[image_credit]Screen shot[/image_credit][image_caption]House Speaker Melissa Hortman said the St. Paul rally speakers used violent rhetoric, speaking of the need for casualties, and threatened going to the homes of Walz, legislators and judges.[/image_caption]
Both Gazelka and Daudt had said people with concerns about the election should be listened to.
Walz had been on the teleconference for more than 20 minutes before he spoke. When he did, he unloaded. “I’m incredibly disappointed in this conversation,” Walz said, holding up a photo from D.C. of a noose strung on a gallows. The election, he said, was investigated and litigated and found to be free and fair.
“How do we find common ground when we have people who won’t say the election was fair?” Walz asked. “Just because you’re angry with the result of it isn’t an excuse for what’s happened.
[image_credit]Screen shot[/image_credit][image_caption]House Minority Leader Kurt Daudt agreed that protest is a basic right that must be defended, “but we also need to speak out against violence, against rioting, against looting, by whoever does that.[/image_caption]
And Walz said he took “umbrage” with statements that what happened in St. Paul was okay, because, he said, “the result of that, and that language of taking the governor and his family prisoner, and that ‘there may be casualties,’ resulted for the first time the State Patrol entering the living quarters and removing my 14-year-old son to a safe location.”
Many people who looted and burned property in Minneapolis and St. Paul have been charged with crimes and are being prosecuted, Walz said. But there are lawmakers and others who are afraid to go to work because of threats made against them by people who think President Trump won the election.
“I did not expect this conversation to veer into a condemnation of a House candidate who was roundly criticized, or an idea that we’re gonna pretend that what happened is, in any way, equivalent to what happened last Wednesday,” Walz said. “Now we’re gonna say that both sides do this, but you know these people are angry because this election was rigged.” He accused the Republicans of engaging in “epic gaslighting.”
Daudt and Walz engaged in a back-and-forth after Daudt repeated that the country needs to “spend more time trying to understand the other side.”
“I’m not going to spend any time trying to understand a person who killed a Capitol Hill Police officer, tried to destroy our democracy,” Walz said. “I’m not going to spend any time trying to figure out how a president of the United States …”
“Governor,” interrupted Daudt, “I have spoken out about that many times on this phone call … I can’t speak out in stronger terms that that is absolutely wrong. You and I agree on that. I would appreciate if you don’t try to insinuate that I or anyone associated with the Minnesota House or the Minnesota Senate in any way condones that behavior.”
[image_credit]Screen shot[/image_credit][image_caption]Senate Minority Leader Susan Kent: “We have a responsibility to deal with facts, to deal with truth. We can listen to their questions but we can’t perpetuate this — for political purposes — mythmaking.”[/image_caption]
Hortman said she wondered how GOP lawmakers could suggest that Walz have conversations with people who aimed suggestions of casualties at him and his family. According to the Associated Press, one of the speakers at the St. Paul rally — Alley Waterbury of Woodbury — asked Walz to “please take time to meet with us one-on-one, because if you don’t, you’re going to make us do things we don’t want to do. We’re going to come for you, but we want to talk to you first.”
“I think we have to be realistic about holding people responsible for hate speech and not expect the governor to ignore the fact that people are saying on the Capital premises that there should be a civil war and there should be casualties and by casualties they mean him,” Hortman said. “To ask him to turn around and turn the other cheek and hug this person close and say, ‘Why is it that you don’t think we had a free and fair and legal election,’ is completely unrealistic.”
She said Republicans need to decide, “whether they are the party of QAnon or they are the party of Lincoln and Reagan.”
After Walz left the teleconference, Gazelka said Minnesota leaders have to tone down the tone of the rhetoric. “You can call me if you think I’m gaslighting but I’m just trying to condemn it all,” Gazelka said. “What happened in D.C. was tragic from the top all the way down. And yet, the process worked. But we should be looking much broader. There’s a lot of stuff going on and if we don’t figure out how to do it together we’re in serious trouble.”
Update: Monday afternoon, hours after the forum, both GOP leaders issued statements condemning the language used at the St. Paul “Storm the Capitol” rally that included appearances by six House members.
“Today we learned threats against the Governor last week led to an evacuation of the Governor’s residence. We also learned there are threats targeting state capitols across the nation,” Gazelka said. “Threats against elected officials, public or private property are not acceptable. Any threat made to intimidate democracy is reprehensible, no matter who it comes from.
“That’s why I made comments this morning that we all must ‘lower the tone.’ You may feel angry, or feel you have been wronged, but that is never an excuse for violent language or destructive behavior.”
House Republicans issued a letter signed by all 59 of its members, including four who attended the rally, criticizing some of the statements and calling for an investigation. They are Reps. Eric Lucero of Dayton, Mary Franson of Alexandria, Glenn Gruenhagen of Glencoe and Susan Akland of St. Peter.
“We, the undersigned members of the Minnesota House of Representatives, unequivocally condemn the violence and violent rhetoric at the events in Washington D.C. and Saint Paul on January 6. Those who participated in criminal destruction of property and assaults on our law enforcement officials at the United States Capitol should be arrested and prosecuted, and those who made threats of violence at the rally in Saint Paul should be investigated and held accountable.
“We must all come together and affirm that violence, destruction, and threats — no matter the context — should be condemned and have no place in our political process.”
Two other attendees caucus with the five-member New Republican Caucus. They are Reps. Steve Drazkowski of Mazeppa and Jeremy Munson if Lake Crystal. That statement said that those who attended heard no threats or violent rhetoric. They then repeated the comparisons to Thompson’s statements last summer and to rioting and arson following the death of George Floyd.
Listen to them? They were listened to when they cast their ballots, the ballots were counted, and they mounted challenges in court. Being “listened to” doesn’t mean you’re going to get your way.
Yet even so, new plans are afoot to attack state capitols. Listen to them, indeed.
These Jokers trying to equate what happened at the Capitol and what happened after George Floyd was killed don’t have a leg to stand on. The mostly nonviolent George Floyd protests were about very real violence that we see over and over again. The point was to get recognition of that violence and so seek change.
What happened at the Capitol was an attempt to overturn the results of a free and fair election that they have been told, with NO EVIDENCE, was stolen from them. Republicans have been telling them that or signalling that to them by refusing to accept the results until weeks and months after the election. The intent was to install the rioters prefer Candidate as President. They were roaming the the halls of the Capitol looking for the #2 and #3 person in the line of succession to the presidency with the intent of doing them harm. Think about that. They were trying to cut the head off our government.
In the Trump Era, the Jokers always have/had to engage in some form of apologetics for the indefensible. It’s now second nature for them. If I were to give them the benefit of the doubt, they do it because that’s what their radicalized base now demands of them. So we get this halfhearted “It was terrible, but what about….”, etc. Their latest statement in the “update” above comes close to being strong enough, and is the best that we can expect of them. They will not denounce Trump’s Big Lie.
And to be fair, Daudt and Gazelka were only haplessly echoing what the DC Repubs have been saying to sanitize the Trump Insurrection, as those worthies continue their votes to defend and enable Trumpolini’s “Stop the Steal” Big Lie. The “message” always must be uniform.
Its like Arnold said in his video. JFK wrote a book called Profiles In Courage. If it were written now none of their names would appear in it.
Mostly non-violent that incurred over $500 million dollars worth of damage.
Of course the conference with the Mn. DFI and the GOP didn’t go well. Plenty of people took cell phone vidios of a Minnesota DFLer, accompanied by an angry appearing group, hanging the wife ( in effigy) of retiring police chief, Bob Kruell and threating to burn down Hugo. Our country doesn’t need extremists from either the left wing or the right wing. I did notice a smirk on the face of the leader of Iran, whose people have been given to chanting ” America is the Great Satan. Americans must die” since the days of Jimmy Carter. So at least the extremists, including Trump and his followers, are making him happy.
We do need to work much harder and more sincerely in ending systemic racism (zoning laws, last hired first fired etc.) We must do this – and stop with all the ” Not in MY neighborhood” fake fixes.
The name is Kroll, and note that the people you reference still have Twitter accounts. Sad.
Thanks for the correction. Not interested in following Twitter accounts. No idea how many there are. No accountability as there would be in regular jounalism. Very relieved Joe Biden won the election and hope our country can have some relief. Objected to stereotyping white people because it is wrong like stereotyping any other group. Am aware of the obvious – people of color have been the most discriminated against of any group for many years and it must stop.
Bob Kroll is a white supremacist.Ask him about the white power motorcycle”club” he belongs to.
Until the GOP leadership can announce that Biden won in an legal, free and fair election, I think any of GOP calls for “unity” or decrying “divisiveness” should be ignored as bad faith arguments.
What happened on Wednesday was terrible and embarrassing. But we won’t get anywhere if Walz lies about it. Trump didn’t urge anyone to kill anybody.
Cory, you’re turning your moral universal into a black hole.
Now you’re going to argue that months of Trump proclaiming that the election was stolen from him, and then weeks calling on his supporters to be at the Capitol on Jan 6th, didn’t promote the attack on the Capitol? When Trump stood there and told a crowd of thousands to march down to the Capital and fight like hell, and Giuliani told them to go down and engage in trial by combat… this wasn’t inciting the violence? Clearly attendees didn’t understand the non-violent code talk that Giuliani and Trump were using because they DID march down to the Capital and people got killed. But I know how easy it may have been for you to miss all of that… after all there’s been like ZERO news coverage eh?
Anyway’s Cory, Walz never said that Trump told anyone to go kill people so your observation is incoherent.
Just like his Russian collusion, he didn’t need to be explicit about it for it to be effective. If you truly believed Democrats stole the election from you, statements like
“All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they’re doing and stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.” or “Today I will lay out just some of the evidence proving that we won this election” followed by the crowd chanting “Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!” might incite a few people to violence and it did.
Trump uses coded weasel words to communicate his real intent to his followers. They know exactly what he means when he pretends to care about violence but then turns right around and says:
“We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.”
“We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
After he went on ginning up the crowd about how VP Pence when he expected Pence to change the election on his behalf – but Pence didn’t, the mob was chanting “Hang Mike Pence.” Look it up on Snopes if you don’t believe it.
He encouraged fighting – the police – and over 100 were injured, one killed by getting hit in the head with a fire hydrant. They wanted to hang Pence and kill Pelosi. Trump encouraged violence. Admit it.
Good for the Governor. If the MNGOP insists on mealy-mouthed platitudes over action, they will be (rightly) noted as collaborators, should the forecasted violence come to pass. They can then be dealt with via full force of law.
And, who is thinking that Daudt and Gazelka have listened to anything those of us in the metro have said? Last “R” that listened to anything from the meto was Arnie, what 20+ years ago.
Dems in the US Senate blocked a resolution condemning mob violence in July.
Did they encourage it before it happened? Did they know about the plans for it beforehand, yet sit on their hands as it went down?
Unless they did, trying to draw a comparison is ridiculous.
They just wanted to add a sentence specifically saying the president should not incite violence.
Of course Republicans couldn’t agree to that.
If you’re going to toss out a sentence you think proves your point, try very hard to include the rest of that point.
Why? Because you got schooled, Cory, and it makes you look uniformed which makes you look like the insurrectionists. You know, deny the facts type of thought process. That never works well in a debate.
I have a question for you. Did you watch the Michael Cohen hearings when Representative Elijah Cummings chaired them before he passed? If you had you would have heard what Trump’s *fixer* said about him. He reported that Trump never gave a direct order, just like a mob boss never gave a direct order that might convict him of a crime. Instead, he used *other words and phrases* to that gave directions to his people. Trigger words very clear in the examples given to you by other commenters on here. Those examples are undeniable, Cory. Look at them closely.
You might want to look at this article. It’s one without a paywall. It’s not a direct line for the money but it’s certainly not something that should be ignored either. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-campaign-paid-organizers-of-pre-riot-rally-2-7-million/ar-BB1d0oVL
Kurt Daudt represents the most reactionary voters in his exurban demographic in the NE metro. Voters who believe that Trump is one of them. That Daudt is making America great…..again. The 8th district remains in Republican hands due in large part to Daudts metro area constitutents.
RB Holbrook is spot-on.
“Alley Waterbury of Woodbury — asked Walz to ‘please take time to meet with us one-on-one, because if you don’t, you’re going to make us do things we don’t want to do. We’re going to come for you, but we want to talk to you first.'”
That’s nothing more than a thinly-veiled threat to do… something unpleasant, the details of which are left to the imagination. Why would the Governor – or any sane person – respond to a threat of “We’re going to come for you…” with a kindly “Sure, let’s sit down and talk?”
The stench of white grievance is now simply overwhelming, and has been intentionally ginned up by the “conservative” movement since the election of Obama in 2008. It reached its logical endpoint in 2021 with the storming of the US Capitol by an enraged white nationalist mob incited by a (white male) American fascist demagogue.
Over what? The Big Lie that the election was somehow “stolen” (across 6 “battleground” states!) based on nothing but total fantasy fed by the monster Trumpolini, and condoned by elected Repubs across the nation. Leave aside the fact that Trumpolini lost the popular vote by over 7 million; in “conservative”-world the popular vote has been declared irrelevant; instead (and let’s be honest) what now matters to the American right is the white vote. The non-white vote is literally viewed as fraudulent.
That’s the reality, and of course complicit Repubs who want to keep the game going can’t and won’t look it in the face. Instead, they (for example) bleat that Walz should “listen to them”. Listen to abject nonsense and racist anti-democratic fantasies. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
Personally I think the ginning started when Bill Clinton came on the scene, and RR was able to dump the Fairness Doctrine, the R’s can live in a world of fairness and honesty, and rightly admit it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine
,
I asked Al Franken (back when he was a Senator) if he thought it was time to revive the Fairness Doctrine, and he said: “No”. When I asked why he said he thought it was a free speech issue… so I said: “What? Ronald Reagan brought us free speech?” and he laughed.
Once again, Republicans and Trump supporters are revealing their moral depravity. As ALWAYS when anyone they support does something seriously illegal or immoral they can’t resist the reflexive urge to point to someone else who they claim did the same thing or worse. Beyond the absurd comparisons themselves, the idea that any crimes or immorality provide and excuse or justification for someone else’s crimes and moral depravity is itself a product of moral and rational depravity.
Like a bunch of 5 years old’s with short attention spans, they impulsively reach back and want to include some other event that had nothing to do with the scenario at hand, they can’t stay focused.
If we look beyond the obvious depravity of bringing the Floyd riots into the conversation, we have to note that the comparison itself is irrational. No elected official spend months prodding and promoting the Floyd riot. No politician tried to capitalize on the floyd riot as a fundraising opportunity. In fact the only politicians who tried to exploit those riots for political gain were law and order Republicans who tried to parlay fear into votes.
Beyond this, as it turned out, those responsible for most of the actual destruction turned out to be white supremacists and suburban riot tourists who came into the cities hoping to promote race wars or simply just live their dreams of lawlessness and arson.
Finally there’s the fact that EVERYONE has ALREADY condemned the violent aspects of the riots. NO ONE has condoned the burning to of the 3rd precinct while condemning the deadly coup attempt on Jan 6th. If Daudt and Gazelka think their condemnation of “all” violence makes them special or more enlightened, I would remind them that they are the last agents of non-violence to show up in the room. Non violent and peaceful protest have been a liberal principles of behavior for decades. Republicans who are just NOW renouncing ALL violence cannot claim to be the voice of reason or morality in the room. It might be a good sign that they are finally joining the voices of reason and morality for a change, but they have no moral monopoly of any kind, and they are last ones to join the parade.
Now let’s look at this request for “unity” Gazelka and Daudt pretend to make. The suggestion that we need to listen to violent Fascists or even just Trump supporters in order to understand their grievances toxic demand.
We already know what the grievances are, we’ve BEEN listening. The Grievance is that Biden and Democrats stole the election. The grievance is that Satanic inspired communists and leftists are taking over America. These grievances are a delusional fabrications that we’ve been well aware of for months and decades. These claim began long before this election day. Do Daudt and Gazelka really think we haven’t heard these Grievances? Do they think we didn’t notice the demands to overturn the election? Do they think we didn’t hear the insurgents shouting: “Stop the steal!”
Do Daudt and Gazelka really think we haven’t heard the laundry list of complaints these people have been whining about for decades? From taxes to culture wars we’ve haven’t been able to escape this noise for decades and these guys expect to stop and pretend we haven’t been listening now?
Now Daudt and Gazelka think they can force us to indulge these fantasies of tyranny and stolen elections by threatening us with violence?
The delusional claims of election fraud and anti-Christian “leftism” these people are fantasizing about have already been well documented and broadcast. The idea that EVERYONE is now required to stop whatever we’re doing (like for instance counting the Electoral College vote) and consider whatever baseless and delusional grievances these guys manufacture out of whole-cloth, is simply a display of white privilege. The practice of entertaining these dystopian fantasies is actually toxic to the fabric of our culture, communities, and body politic.
After decades of investigations going all the way back to the Bush/Cheney administration there is not one scintilla of reliable evidence that significant voter fraud is occurring in the United States. After weeks of lawsuits and claims no a single court challenge remains. Multiple reviews and recounts by REPUBLICANS have verified that this election was fair, secure, and these results are accurate. We have indulged these manufactured grievances to the point of insurrection… enough is enough eh?
Exactly. Trumpolini won the (lower education) white vote, therefore he “really” won the election. The votes of urban non-whites are the basis of the Trump’s claims of “Stop the Steal” and “Save America”. Um, whose “America”? White America. Hence the enraged white grievance. Being a violent sore loser is now is now to be a valiant American “patriot”.
But “listen to them”, say quailing elected Repubs caught between reality and their deluded (overwhelmingly) white base. Yes, “listen” one more time to their fact-free anti-democratic ravings, that have collapsed upon the slightest examination. As you say, “we” (most especially the courts) have been “listening”, and the Trumpite claims have been found wholly delusional, dozens of times over! Apparently the demand now is to “listen harder” to the Big Lie….as the FBI and law enforcement prepare to counter a second armed insurrection by white domestic terrorists/fascists on Inauguration day!
One can “listen” all one wants, but one is never going to hear any sense in abject nonsense. But the white grievance is coming through loud and clear!
My only issue with BK is that while the insurgents on the 6th didn’t look all that high class (apparently something the Trump family noticed) the idea that these are uneducated mobs is little misleading. We’ve seen in a number demographic studies that there are plenty of college degree’d people among the ranks of these right wing Republican/Fascists. Most of those carrying election certs for instance, Daudt, Gazelka, Cruz, McConnel have college degrees and even graduate and post graduate degrees. We also know that the typical profile of libertarians isn’t high school or less education.
Trump loves the poorly educated but he needs elitist RW thought leaders in the precincts and the burgs who give street cred to irrational interpretations of reality. Sometimes they’re even married to each other! There’s a “big tent” for you.
Actually I think you have it backwards Roy. Trump loves the wealthy elite but needs the uneducated masses. Trump is a nouveau riche schmuck who’s spent his entire life trying to buy his way into high society, he thought being president would get him into the club, but now they’re all cancelling their contracts. The mob is all he has left, and he can’t find a place to live.
Perhaps the Governor and our Legislators should concentrate on our State. Set the next biennial budget, implement all the social justice plans, defund law enforcement, give lip service to climate change, and adjourn without needing a special session. And do it with more than three people (Walz, Gazelka, Hortman) making the decisions. OK, that last sentence is a bit over the top.
Tom, please pay attention. This was a meeting among MN legislators and the Governor of MN to discuss the MN legislative agenda. The Floyd riots took place in Minneapolis- Minnesota. And the demonstration that triggered a security alert at the Governors mansion was in St. Paul… St. Paul MN. This was all clearly discussed in the article.
“Perhaps the Governor and our Legislators should concentrate on our State. Set the next biennial budget, implement all the social justice plans, defund law enforcement, give lip service to climate change, and adjourn without needing a special session. And do it with more than three people (Walz, Gazelka, Hortman) making the decisions.”
My comment stays the same because the article speaks of State business and I hope that it gets done. Seems simple. State representatives should concern themselves first and foremost with State business.
Personally, I have no problem with listening to the concerns of those who feel there were problems with the election. What I do have a problem with, though, is the fact that most of these people aren’t satisfied with being listened to. They demand to be believed. They demand that I take their side, fully and totally, and the mere fact that I’m willing to listen proves, to them anyway, that they’re right, and I’m wrong.
And yet, the problem goes much deeper than just that. The vast majority of these Republicans make all kinds of accusations and claims, many of which are truly bizarre, and some of which are almost comically improbable. They insist that there’s a nationwide conspiracy to steal the election away from Donald Trump. They are convinced that voting machine makers, specifically Dominion Voting Systems, have purposely altered or reprogrammed their machines, at the behest of the Democratic Party, to favor Democrats, particularly Joe Biden, and that the votes were counted in some foreign nation: Germany, Spain, even Venezuela. They claim they were denied equal access to observe vote counting, or were denied access entirely, the implication being that this circumstance was by design, and present in every precinct in America. They repeat, over and over again, the tired old claims that dead people and illegal immigrants are casting votes for Democrats. They fully believe that stacks of Democrat-only votes were counted numerous times. And many of their claims begin with the words “everyone knows.” I’ve learned, from bitter experience, not to point out that if I don’t know, how can it be that everyone knows?
Now, I don’t dispute that there may well have been various irregularities, here and there, in the casting of votes, and/or in the methodology of tabulating and reporting results. It’s certainly possible – or, at least, it’s not impossible. But I have found that the minute I allow that, well, perhaps, this or that particular incident may have occurred, although perhaps not quite as they claim it did, they immediately insist triumphantly that it proves EVERYTHING else they say is true. Period! On the other hand, if I deny that anything they’ve claimed could possibly be true, then I’m accused of being stupid, blind, ignorant, a snowflake, a Communist…..you name it. I didn’t vote for Donald Trump? I’m a hater. I’m unreasonable. I’m a sore loser. I can’t get over the fact that Hillary lost. I’ve never given him a chance. I’m stubborn. And I’m stupid, blind, ignorant, a snowflake……well, you see where this is going. And it’s why I’ve found that, for the most part, engaging a Republican in a frank, reasonable honest talk about the election is a complete waste of time. They’re relentless, and simply won’t budge. They’re right, and that’s that. Case closed.
This is very much like what I’ve found with Republicans in general, when it comes to discussing practically any issue. There is simply no middle ground, no room for discussion, and no possibility of negotiation. Their idea of compromise is that we start with the Republican position, and go no further. Their version of “give-and-take” is that Democrats do all the giving, and Republicans do all the taking.
Another problem I’ve run into is that a perfectly reasonable, civil, honest discussion of issues – even relatively minor ones – quickly devolves into sharp, ugly criticism and name-calling. This is virtually unavoidable; try as I might to stick to the subject at hand, invariably it becomes a tirade against evil, sneaky, lying, hateful, nasty Democrats….and since it’s quite obvious that I’m one myself, I quickly become the target of a full-on personal attack. This is a no-win situation, especially in public. They will not change the subject, nor will they tolerate any effort to change the subject, no matter how courteously or calmly expressed. In fact, courtesy and calmness tend to antagonize them. I’ve tried being silent, to no avail; it only infuriates them. Changing the subject is an admission of defeat, showing courtesy is patronizing, and remaining calm is offensive and insulting. Walk away, and there’s a good chance they’ll follow, because they haven’t finished telling me off, and they’re going to have their say, by God, whether I like it or not.
I want to repeat that these things are not true of ALL Republicans. But it’s true of most of them, certainly the ones I know and have met. And I realize, too, that just having said this here, it’s likely there’ll be a fairly nasty response. That being said, if it does happen, then fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. But I daresay your comments will be a good bit nastier than mine have been. You see, I’ve noticed that, too. Being nasty to a Republican is like throwing gasoline on a fire. There’s an instant explosion of flame, but it doesn’t make the fire itself burn any better. It just uses up the fuel much faster, making the resultant fire look puny by comparison.
Mark, you’re not suggesting that the guys who rallied behind Rush Limbaugh when he coined the term: “Feminazi” have degraded public discourse and encouraged disrespect and hostility are you? Surely you jest sir!
And NOW they want to complain about being called Fascists?
Fantastic writing, many thanks.
But is this not a description of the much-studied authoritarian personality, which we know has pretty much now fully gravitated to the Repub party, since it gives them much of what they desire? It is also the description of the thug mentality, exhibited by emotionally stunted individuals, whose goal is often to provoke a physical confrontation.
This is what the conservative movement has manufactured for the country over the past 4 decades of the Conservative Era (1980-202?) Heckuva job!
I could not have said it better. Sadly, though, if the only answer is to avoid them, how do we heal as a nation?
Ms. KIahler, if we really want to “heal” we need to avoid circular narrative. The idea that we need to “include” the very people who have/are trying to tear the nation apart in any effort to restore the nation is incoherent. It’s like telling a rape survivor that she can’t heal and move on without the participation of her rapist.
Circular reasoning insists that “healing” requires 100% participation, therefore without 100% participation, healing is impossible. This is a dead end, not a pathway towards restoration and healing.
It’s actually not THAT complicated, those who want to work towards restoration, unity, and justice do so, with or without the participation of those who don’t share that objective. This how it’s always been, this is how justice and liberty has always emerged.
Paul, you’re looking for an argument where there is none.
I don’t think we need to understand positions based on fantasy. But I do think that we do need to heal as a nation. I just don’t know how that can be done when a significant portion of our population are living in lala land and are pretty aggressive about it. When we’re talking 30%+ of the population believes things that simply aren’t true, then we’ve got a pretty significant barrier to some level of mutual understanding.
And it’s not really akin to telling a rape victim that she can’t heal without the participation of her rapist–the rapist should be convicted and put in jail because he committed a violent crime against another human being. We can’t simply jail 30% of our population simply because they’re belligerently delusional. That’s not how this works. If we were talking about maybe 5% of the population, maybe we could exclude them from the conversation (though, I think that would be foolish as well–I mean, that’s pretty much the white privilege playbook against minority groups–we know better and you all should just shut up and be grateful).
But it’s not just 5%, and they’re not all criminals or horrible people. They’re Americans, and as foolish as some of the Founding Father’s ideas turned out to be, we still should not embrace the tyranny of the majority. Neither should the minority abuse that. Even though I don’t know how we can live with so many Americans with their minds fused shut with anger, resentment, racism, and/or pure absurdity, we HAVE to figure it out. We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, and the goal should be to quit finding reasons to put them in there, not simply swap out one population for another.
“Now, I don’t dispute that there may well have been various irregularities, here and there, in the casting of votes, and/or in the methodology of tabulating and reporting results. ”
Thank you! You have said so much more than the Strib or any major media outlet will admit. How refreshing.
“You NEVER listen to me.”
I remember going through times, as nearly every parent has (or will ), usually when their child is about Middle School, when that child, overestimating his or her abilities and responsibility, argues for the right to do things that would not be safe or advisable for them.
For a good deal of time, that parent’s refusal, no matter how well-reasoned and carefully explained is met with countless objections by the child who, in the end says, “You never listen to me,” (sound familiar?) the clear implication being that if you “listened to me,” you’d ONLY be able to see things from my side and let me do whatever I want.
At that point, healthy parents stick to their convictions and judgment, and continue to protect their kids from harming themselves and others. Still, it takes a couple of years often for that adolescent child to gain enough maturity and judgment to be allowed to do more of what they want, and the “You never listen to me,” arguments to end.
IF however, the parent responds to those seemingly endless adolescent arguments for greater indepenance and freedom by knocking that child flat (physically or emotionally) to try to teach them “never to do that again,” that child’s psyche responds in three ways: 1) it responds to that seemingly life threatening level of physical or emotion pain by locking in internal exile the aspect that child’s personality that is capable of experiencing or expressing independent thought and personal strength in decision making (which seemed responsible for causing the pain).
2) The loss of that piece of the child’s personality leaves him/her with a painful sense of having something missing (pain which we commonly call “heartache”). That heartache is relieved when the person forms a strong emotional attachment to someone who appears to possess those aspects of their OWN personality that were beaten out of them: i.e. that same abusive parent, or a strong, likely abusive, coach, religious leader, political leader, screen actor, or other famous person.
and 3) When stressed by life or circumstances (the loss of the “strong” person to whom they have emotionally attached themselves, for instance), the psyche locks away whatever is left of the person’s normal personality and substitutes that locked-away adolescent. The personality that’s temporarily brought forward, however, is EXACTLY that adolescent who was locked away, with no more maturity or judgment than the child had at whatever age it was when the original trauma happened, and likely fully enraged or otherwise out of control.
This is exactly what Trump (likely unconsciously) called forth from his emotionally-dependent followers on December 6th. It’s quite likely that at least some of those enraged followers, if they are honest, would not be able explain to themselves “what came over me,” after the event was over, since it is commonly the case that people who move through such a personality shift do not understand why they do what they do when they’re shifted (which in no way relieves them of responsibility for their actions).
In fact, these locked away personality aspects don’t like being locked up and will often act as “tricksters,” motivating the person in whom they are imprisoned to create opportunities where that person will be “triggered” and that locked up aspect will be released again (for a time).
All of this follows a predictable logic, it’s just not the kind of logic we’re accustomed to considering since it does not seem logical, even to the person going through it. Having this very common personality dysfunction, however, makes such folk very easy for selfish and self-serving demagogues to manipulate, even when that manipulation is abusive.
It’s possible, of course, for the damage such folk have suffered to be repaired and their personalities re-integrated, but that requires that they seek help (which is quite uncommon).
So when I hear our “conservative” friend complain, “You never listen to me!” I really just want to shout at them, “grow up!”
But the reality is that they’ll never be able to unless they seek and find help, repair, and healing for the damage they’ve suffered.
Yeah, they’ve had an entire network, and an army of radio and cable blowhards blasting out their grievances and complaints for decades… but they claim to be victims of censorship and oppression who cant’ their message out. They have no choice but to threaten us in our homes now because we’ve been ignoring them for so long. Screw that.
“So when I hear our “conservative” friend complain, “You never listen to me!” I really just want to shout at them, “grow up!””
Thank you! Your comment is so much better than the “shut up” from everyone else.
It is obvious that godliness has influenced you in a positive way and we are grateful.
Tom, thanks so much for sharing your perspective! You should post more frequently, I haven’t seen your name before?