Tim Niver is owner operator of Mucci’s and Saint Dinette in St. Paul. One of the more outspoken restaurateurs in town, he also hosts the Niver Niver Land podcast, where he converses with chefs, restaurateurs, and food writers.
Niver’s prominence in local restaurants dates to the revered Aquavit at the IDS Center. He co-founded the iconic remake of Town Talk Diner, went on to open Strip Club in St. Paul, Saint Dinette in Lowertown, then Mucci’s. His attempt to bring an upscale deli style restaurant to Lyn Lake, Meyvn, proved a bust, and its conversion to a Mucci’s was undone by the pandemic and civil unrest near the restaurant.
When I spoke to Niver during the lockdowns of 2020, he suggested the pandemic would act almost as a cleansing agent for the restaurant industry. I asked him to revisit the topic at the dawn of 2024. Though Niver is an avowed liberal, he is candid about doing business in a state and city where government seems to view business as a negative force to be harnessed and regulated. We spoke the day after Christmas, as he prepared to face the slowest month of the year. (The interview has been edited for length and clarity.)
Q: Does the restaurant world look as you expected it to, four years past 2020?
A: I was right about some things and was wrong about some things. What I was right about is the financials of the business are more difficult than they have been. Still scraping for what margin we can. I thought it was going to be the roaring twenties when everyone was released out of it, but it didn’t happen. It may have happened other places, but not [the Twin Cities]. And more than COVID, I think George Floyd’s murder changed the way the Cities act, the mood overall. Perceived safety. That was double trouble. So when we got done with the government aid which was paying for payroll increases, then it’s another oh shit moment to find your equilibrium again. With higher prices, so you may see increases in sales, but decreases in customer counts. Most places have raised prices more than once, probably 20%+. Servers are doing OK because all the inflation has raised their tips. But our costs are up more than our menu prices. You do see openings, some high-profile openings. But a lot of closures too. People are still wondering how to make it work.
Q: Did you emerge into 2022 clean or did that period leave you with a lot of debt or other scars?
A: Well, I had a restaurant close in ‘21, so I had that ball and chain and I still do. I have debt from it. I’m negotiating through that. When it was 2008 and I opened the Strip Club, and the economy crashed, the restaurant did fine. There was still some insulation, some corporate spend. This feels like it’s beyond that. So the cities feel empty and hollowed out. I’m glad fewer restaurants closed than imagined, but I think there’s a lot of distress out there. It’s hard to let go, be done, and when you close it, the debt becomes super real because there’s no revenue. So you just try to extend and keep it going. There were periods of hope when you say, oh maybe next summer, maybe the fall. But we haven’t seen it. And inflation really kicks the middle class because they’re not making much more money.
I did a solo podcast episode where I outlined some of the things that were hurting the industry. One prime example is each of my restaurant spends $1,200 a month in Ecolab products. And I don’t see anybody from Ecolab in my restaurants, in the Ecolab building. It would be great for Ecolab to have their headquarters people supporting the city that’s supporting the headquarters, supporting billions in profits. They leave a hole in the city, and I’m paying more for their products. I can buy chemicals elsewhere, but I thought I had a partner. But not in this environment.
Q: How is downtown St. Paul different beyond Ecolab?
A: The retirees that lived in St. Paul in 2016-2018 near Mears Park are gone. They left. Rents came down and the population age and disposable income came down and everything’s flipped for us. [Saint Dinette] didn’t take reservations. We expected people to come and they did. We’d have an hour wait with walk-in business. We saw a bit of slowing before the pandemic, we added reservations, and it helped out. But now there’s no density. We just had the best month we’ve had in six years, but that sucks. It’s been six years to have a great month. And the reason we had so much business was Glow in CHS Field, the Christmas Market at Union Depot, and the Polar Express. So families had three reasons to be here that they don’t typically have. It’s not sustainable everyday business. Lowertown now is a destination not a hangout place. Conventions are still off 50%, in terms of attendees, so they don’t disperse as far. And I know what’s coming in January.
“There’s a lot of pressure for us to fix what’s wrong. Who decided that? Businesses can’t be responsible for making everyone whole.”
Q: Did you see an inverse upside at Mucci’s, which isn’t exposed to downtown’s challenges?
A: I don’t know if we’ve seen that, but it’s been way more consistent. Those folks didn’t move.
Q: There’s obviously a pessimistic vibe here.
A: I don’t like being the negative person, but I feel like there’s not enough people saying what’s going on. People find complaining to be inhospitable. But this industry is in trouble in a lot of ways. It’s harder to overcome challenges. [St. Paul] still has $2 an hour of wage increases to work in. People have given up on a tip credit. We’ve switched over to fees. And that’s confusing for guests because there’s no standard. There’s an easy way to piss off people by having different policies all the time. I ended up not changing anything. I didn’t want to knee jerk into something I’d never done before.
Q: How has delivery and Door Dash affected sit-down restaurants? It used to be if you didn’t want to cook, it was pizza or dine out. Now it’s delivery.
A: Habits changed completely during the pandemic. We bought animals we can’t leave. Two years of not going anywhere changes you. And then you go back and it’s a quarter more expensive. I do the same thing. I do more takeout than I used to. My habits had to change too. And it’s often cheaper to call Trieu Chao and order $40 worth of their cuisine and eat it for two days than go to a grocery store and prepare a fresh meal and have it for one night.
Q: How have wages have evolved?
A: Restaurants employ a lot of people who make the minimum wage because they make 20% tips on top of it. They got big raises [as the minimum wage evolved from $7 to soon $15]. In the [kitchen] we could hire people for under $20 an hour in 2019 and now it’s $22-23, $26-27 in downtown Minneapolis.
Q: You mean for a chef or pedigreed cook?
A: No, I mean a dishwasher. The minimum wage is irrelevant except that it’s soon to be a $15 supplement to people already making $20+ an hour in tips. Servers are doing better than ever because the prices are up and they get a percentage. Servers are awesome and we need them. I’m a server and worked for tips all my life. But it can’t be that the city mandates that the employee benefits so much and the business gets nothing. What is the city doing for businesses? If I had a $4 tip credit so I’d pay $9 an hour instead of $13, do you know what that would do for me? I’m also paying taxes on payroll, so it goes up every time wages rise. Some of it has to stay in the business. What is a business worth if it can’t be open? Who does it employ?
Q: This restaurant [the Lowry] we are in used to employ a host just to hold the door for people. It was their hospitality model. Not anymore.
A: You can’t. But you can only cut back so much. Then it affects your vibe. Your hospitality. These cuts are typically about losing less, not making more.
Q: Is there low-hanging fruit left? Or is the industry more efficient?
A: We’ve had to be. I’m doing everything I can to be lean. I work at Dinette ten hours a week and don’t take any money from it. I bought my partner out. It’s going fine, we’re good managers, but that doesn’t mean everybody is getting what they need out of it. I can’t tell you in one year I’m going to renew my lease if the situation remains status quo. And it’s a great lease—occupancy cost at that restaurant is 6% all-in. But I don’t have the revenue to take advantage of that. A lot of the sweat equity all those years didn’t really pay me. I sold a business but didn’t make any money at it. I don’t know how many people make money in this business.
This whole pandemic thing got me to a point where I’m starting over. Whether it’s without restaurants or with restaurants or just one restaurant, I don’t know. It’s a brand-new game for me. I feel like I don’t take success for granted anymore. And some of the best things I’ve done are past. I’m not expecting a grand outcome. I’m passionate about what I do but that doesn’t mean it turns into dollars. But I’m happier now with less. Why shouldn’t I be? I don’t think it’s so odd what I’ve got or what I have.
Q: What got you into podcasting?
A: I originally did it for me and the businesses. I feel like eight years ago I had some gung-ho chaps who wanted to climb that culinary ladder. After the pandemic, I realized chefs were burnt out. And I hadn’t stepped to the front to be the face of my businesses. I had a lot of people asking me what was up. So I thought it’d be a good way to stamp myself onto those businesses and stay relevant with guests and industry folks. It turned into something different for me. I didn’t realize how much I was going to love it. It causes me to stretch and formulate my opinions better and think about things more deeply and not feel alone. I wish it could be a new [career] for me. But you have to get discovered. I’ve had 1.5 million plays on my videos in the last four months. People come to my restaurant and say, “I love your podcast.”
Q: You’ve used the forum to stir the pot a bit.
A: When I said fuck you to people cancelling reservations last minute, people are like you suck, you’re complaining, putting it on the guest. Well, what about the guest’s accountability? When you cancel at 5 you’re fucking the business and it’s OK as a guest to know what I think. Those things get the most views. I do need to be controversial to get attention. Could I break into something bigger in media? Probably not in this market because everyone has to gladhand and be gentle.
Q: Let’s talk about bad guest habits for a minute.
A: I get a full turn of cancellations over the course of the week. Why did you cancel an eight-top 15 minutes before the reservation? I understand that life happens. Everything is done online or on an app. Most of them show up. But because there is no social interaction there’s less of a sense of responsibility. It’s about having general courtesy as a society. You don’t cancel your haircut fifteen minutes out. We send texts asking for reconfirmation which helps. But there’s labor managing that process. I don’t want to charge you $20 for your [booking]. Would I have gotten your reservation if I had asked for a deposit?
Q: Portion sizes in the U.S. are bigger than everywhere. I realize giving people a third more food doesn’t increase costs by a third. But is one way to reduce menu sticker shock to normalize portion sizes?
A: Whether we like it or not people are seeking value more and more, so I’m not sure. Dinette portions are not oversized. At Mucci’s, it’s flour and water. And what people are used to. If I dropped my 19-ounce lasagna down to 12-ounce and lowered the price, people would probably object. I also like people to take that bit of bucatini home and remember me the next day when they eat it. … We have overcome the free bread thing.
Q: If you don’t renew Dinette’s lease, will you be happy owning only one restaurant?
A: I don’t want to open another restaurant. Not right now. I have ideas. Couple of named concepts. I think the way I’ve evolved through this is I’ve found some time again for my life. I’ve aged into this business and matured in it. I don’t need to keep creating. It’s always what’s next, but that model is hard to sustain right now. I got a lot of gas left in the tank. I looked outside the industry. Maybe if the business doesn’t need to support me it might do better. But I don’t have the motivation for a new restaurant …. Unless somehow there was a real estate aspect to it.
Q: What about landlords and leases? Has the pandemic changed things?
A: I think they are a bit more aware that making a good [lease] for a business in their building will behoove them because they will last the full ten years of the lease and they’ll make some money every year.
Q: Minneapolis is creating a labor standards board. Hospitality seems to be in its sights. The mayor told one restaurateur that restaurants are the No. 1 business category for labor-related complaints. There’s a perception in the activist community that this is an exploitive business. Is regulating restaurants a path to making the industry more amenable to build careers in, or is it just another step toward making it unsustainable?
A: My businesses aren’t exploitive. Most restaurant jobs are second jobs or supplemental jobs. Most people who get cut early are looking forward to it. Employees find convenience in things the mayor’s office may find exploitative. I don’t know why the city’s trying to run my business so much. Are you going to solve bad management through rules? There should be paths for employees to resolve problems. But what are the complaints and are they legitimate? I was invited to a roundtable discussion at the mayor’s office during the tip credit debate and the main questions were about sexual harassment and wage theft. I asked what are we here for? It sounds like your agenda is to not have these businesses around, to make all wages even, to end tipping. Why me? Why this industry? People don’t like it when the industry is profitable. They feel like they’re being taken for a ride. And these folks are continually trying to get in the business of making my business better and they’re not helping. These folks ended up not needing this minimum wage increase and no one was making minimum anyway when the whole thing happened. I’m liberal but I don’t need people in my business all the time.
Q: Hasn’t the lesson of the last five years been the market works? There was a massive exodus of workers during the pandemic for work-from-home. Wages have gone up exponentially as a result of market forces. If you don’t like your job in a restaurant today, you can find another higher paying one across the street.
A: Right. Why are they focusing on this industry? I don’t really know. Also, different types of restaurants are different types of business. There’s a lot of trying to make it equal for everybody and it’s not going to work. How does a business like mine not cut somebody? It’s hard enough to pay sick time when I have to bring another person in and pay them too. They loved us during the pandemic… “don’t close, please don’t close.” Saint Dinette loves St. Paul more than St. Paul loves Dinette. Businesses shouldn’t have to take care of everything. I think society should take care of some of this. There’s a lot of pressure for us to fix what’s wrong. Who decided that? Businesses can’t be responsible for making everyone whole. Sick time, biodegradable packages, no tip credit. Mayor Carter told us. What’s the city done? City employees got a raise and licensing fees went up. So I paid for that.
